I couldn’t help but come to the same conclusions as I read the definitions. It seems the more vocal they become about it the more like them they become. It’s an odd time in this world. It’s hard to tell which way the world is turning. I just hope the tide will turn against Bush, Blair and Harper and we can get back to some sense of ethics and humanity.
Posted by Larry at August 28, 2006 01:58 PM
Good point Larry. There is no trouble with Islam at all. It’s all Chimpy McHaliburton and Bushco. Once they are ousted, maybe Islam can teach us all about “ethics and humanity”.
Posted by Bino at August 28, 2006 02:33 PM
Bravo Eric, for calling a spade a spade. The neo-conservatives are no doubt followers of Carl Schmitt, and the state of Israel (ironically) appears more fascist (racist, militarized) than most if not all Muslim states. Hezbollah managed to kill three times more Israeli soldiers than civilians, and Israel killed ten times more Lebanese at perhaps the exact opposite (or worse) ratio of soldiers to civilians. So, who are the terrorists, and which is the more professional and civilized fighting force?
Posted by hyperbolus at August 28, 2006 06:57 PM
I keep thinking of Sinclair Lewis’s book, It Can’t Happen Here (written circa 1935), in which is stated “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a bible.”
Posted by Pilgrim at August 28, 2006 07:35 PM
What is frustrating is that this is not knew; the US and friends have made sure history (since they are the victors) records WW II as the good fight- a just and moral war which of course it was not. It was a war, along with WWI (actually both wars are really one conflict) of further imperialsm and conquest. The US likes to bring up Nazi germany and images of Hitler as ultimate symbols of evil and apply them to whoever the US wants to attack (usually a poor nation with seemingly little defensive capabilities).
The US did this in Vietnam and everyone knows what a shameful mess and complete waste of life that was; much like we are seeing in Iraq.
The Bush administration has comitted itself to a policy of denouncing Islamic societys and the culture as a whole in order to continue an imperialitic and mitlitary quest. The American people are paying dearly for this- they are losing funding for things like libraries (which are closing), they are losing funding for social services, education, all kinds of medicare.
How much of the hundreds of billions of dollars of the US war machine could be applied to reconstructing New Orleans which is not being reconstucted (unless you live in a middle-upper class white suburb. In fact, the city consisted of a black majority before the hurricane; now it is about 50-50 white to black.
Bush is an illegitimate president who was voting into office by a shady supreme court ruling. He then moved to grab total control of the government and is now destabilising the world at an accelerated rate. You can not have a war on terrorism because there is no target.
People need to be educated as to what is going on. Americans in particular need to rise up and protest US foreign policy and force Bush out.
Second, the Democrats in the US are a joke. THere is NO political opposition there- a new oppositional movement needs to be started. Of course this is difficult there becuase anyone who does try such a thing will be arrested and charged with esponiage or treason. TALK ABOUT FASCISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We Canadians have to be more involved politically. Stephen Harper is bent on doing more damage to our nation than Mulroney did- and that is saying a lot!
Allah help us all!
Posted by Joshua at August 28, 2006 07:53 PM
Eric is quibbling over semantics. While I know for a fact that those who coined the term Islamofacism had less than pure intentions, Islamofacism aptly describes the violent Islamic forces arrayed against the West AND the world.
I’m a former muslim who if I disclosed my identity risk extreme ostracism, physical harm or even death. Theo V. Gogh lost his life for making a film about Islam. Tell me, what other religion do you risk for making a film about them?
I find Eric’s wishy-washy approach to the issue of violent and intolerant Islam irresponsible and belies his claim to be speaking the truth. Extremism Islam is not a phantom created by the West, as a expedient bogeyman to scarify their populate and hence make selling increased military spending and foreign excursions easier.
Islam has always been pretty violent, intolerant, oppressive religion that was spread at the tip of the sword, riding on the backs of horses that poured out of Arabia. Granted, that would be true for other religions, Christianity most notably. But Christianity reformed, Jews and others don’t follow ancient laws and customs (believed to be directive of God himself) like muslims feel obliged to… for example, Islam today is the only religion that has Apostasy as crime worthy of capital punishment. And I’m not talking about the laws of some despots (or puppet regimes) but THE great Islamic religion itself! THAT is facism. PERIOD, no matter who you like to slice and dice it. Like Christianity, Islam is aggresively proselyting religion… intent on converting (if they could) the whole world into Islam and reconstitute the Khaliifa. If that happened, Eric wouldn’t be able to write his ideas on public forum like this one. Islam is at war with EVERYONE. Not just the West. Everywhere where nonmuslims and muslims come into contact, there’s strife. Why is that? The answer is Islam needs REFORMATION or it’ll continue to react violently to a world it can’t make any headways and be joint partner.
It’s about time some of you to take out your collective heads out of the sand and face facts.
Posted by Apostate at August 28, 2006 09:50 PM
Islamic peoples all over the world are quite diverse and this includes reformed Islamic people. Islamic practitioners are a broadly diverse ideological group. Islamists (the acadamic term for Islamic extremists) are a few ( powerful and wealthy) groups that are growing because of Western imperialism and direct destruction and oppression towards Islam as a whole. There are feminist movements, youth movements and all kinds of positive reforms and movements within Islam.
Most all religions are divided into their various congregations and theologically divergent groups. Islam is no different.
Christian extremists in the US are Bush’s number one supporters; this demographic is nearly unanimous in support of American state sponsored terrorism all over the world.
Bush even invokes God in his horrific escapades. To be sure, many Islamic governments have been entirely tyrranical and oppressive, even brutally so, but as Eric points out these are usually US AMerican allies and in many cases these fascist governments who rule in the name of Islam were installed and propped up by American involvement.
It is not proper to label an entire religion Islamofascism or someone practicing their chosen relgigion an Islamofascist. Islamists in governing may be fascists, but not all Islamics are fascists- not even most.
Islam faces internal struggles because of Islamists and their ability to inspire young generations of oppressed persons to do unthinkable acts. These Islamists are politically motivated and have completely disregarded Islam as a relgion; instead, they implement a gross interpretation of Islam to meet brutal political ends.
If the western world would merely acknowledge and address the roots of the problems in the world, then it would be much easier to counter Islamists and their ways, but as long as the West continues to kill large portions of Islamic people for profits while supporting governments such as the Saudi and Egyptian governments, then Islamists will gain greater footing in the world.
Posted by Joshua at August 29, 2006 03:36 AM
Mr.Former Muslim:
“On the Internet, nobody knows you’re a frog”.
Make all the claims you want… you just displayed total ignorance of at least 3 primary rules of Islamic law.
Wanna try again?
Joshua:
There are over 75 different versions of Islam in Pakistan alone. The religion constantly breaks off and re-invents itself. This is what history shows us.
Right now, there are home-grown American versions of Islam coming up. Unpolluted with oil money and power. For example, it is quite fine with them for a woman to lead prayers in a mosque.
If the US wants to “save itself” (LOL) from “Islam” … they should give all support to American versions of Islam. That is quite OK with the broader religion itself. Mohamed said that “difference in religion is a blessing”.
We don’t have a priesthood or holy-hierarchy or a pope, you see. That is what will save you and me.
Posted by Rampart at August 29, 2006 07:47 AM
If someone wants me to do things a certain way, there is nothing to stop me from making my own version of Islam.
Since we don’t have priests and religious leaders (not in the religious sense in Sunni-Islam) I don’t have to listen to anyone.
Islam is the only religion I know that gives me total freedom from religious authority figures. (many people still look to mullahs for guidance… that is their problem… Islam itself doesn’t require it).
Which maybe explains, why Muslims don’t like being told what we are or aren’t by the likes of former drunks like Dubya. Who the Hell are you? (as Bart Simpson would say)
Don’t get in our face… everything will be great. Even though the world of Islam is very diverse (much more so than Christianity) we have this trait in common…. that most off us can still think for ourselves. We haven’t been turned into sheeple yet by some corporate culture.
Posted by Rampart at August 29, 2006 08:18 AM
Communism was used to scare me as a child, and had me diving under my desk for most of my school life. Today it’s Islamofascism, except they use colors to try and frighten me now.
While we are frightened into believing that Islamofascists like the Communists before them hate our freedom our military grows bloated as our politicians feed them enemies to fight.
One more comment about my childhood in America. My first awareness of terrorists were the Native Americans portrayed in “Cowboy and Indian” movies. I don’t think they were called terrorist, but oh how they terrified the poor white man who was on a God given mission, a destiny in the new Jerusalem that would have him own this land from sea to shining sea.
Posted by Fran at August 29, 2006 08:52 AM
Joshua writes:
“These Islamists are politically motivated and have completely disregarded Islam as a relgion; instead, they implement a gross interpretation of Islam to meet brutal political ends.”
I hope you know theoretical Islam is meaningless. It’s nonexistant. Only Islam as practiced is what matters. Just like theoretical communism didn’t matter, we have to judge Islam by what those that claim to practice it DO. Since that’s the only thing that has any meaningful impact on REALITY.
You go on:
“but as long as the West continues to kill large portions of Islamic people for profits”
Where is this happening? I’m being serious here, I consider myself well informed person but I can’t account for your claim that the West is killing off large portions of the Islamic world. I know it’s utterly false in my native country which is like 99% muslim.
Posted by Apostate at August 29, 2006 09:55 AM
I guess we were killing Muslims for profit when we sent the best of our youth into harm’s way was in the defense of Muslims in peril. In Bosnia. In Kosovo. In the Persian Gulf. In Kuwait. In Afghanistan. And the list goes on.
Posted by Bino at August 29, 2006 10:03 AM
Mr. Rampart writes:
“Mr.Former Muslim:”
Readers, take note the pejorative tone Rampart addresses me. Right off the gate, this persona makes his/her flippant regard for my post well announced.
“Make all the claims you want… you just displayed total ignorance of at least 3 primary rules of Islamic law.”
Claims? Such as? Would like to point out what I said that can’t be substantiated?
I stand by everything I said and if need be willing to discuss at length with anyone. And while I’m not “Islamic scholar,” I do have more than passing knowledge in Islamic theology and history.
Rampart alludes to Islamic Laws while not explaining what exactly I’m ignorant of… as if the mere mention of these laws was enough to show I didn’t know them or rebuke the points I broached.
Well, it’s always easier to accuse and insinuate than it is to substantively address what others have to say. Have it your way.
Posted by Apostate at August 29, 2006 10:09 AM
Frog.
Posted by Rampart at August 29, 2006 11:15 AM
Fran:
There are 3 sides to every story. The cowboy’s side, the injun’s side… and the horse’s side.
How come nobody asks the horse how the West was won? I bet we’ll learn something new.
Posted by Rampart at August 29, 2006 11:24 AM
I’d like to thank Apostate for a counter view to keep the discussion interesting. I also noted Rampart’s juvenile tone and did not appreciate it either. Let’s concentrate on issues people, not names.
Of course I don’t agree with Apostate but that’s just me! I question this idea that Jews and Christians have matured to a new level of enlightenment. Palestinians are subject to a slow, drawn out process of ethnic clensing because the theological state of Israel is determined to reclaim all of its promised land. If that isn’t an example of religious intolerance then I don’t know what is. Likewise, Christians were slaughtering Jews only 60 years ago during the Holocaust. As correctly pointed out, modern day Christians are the most hawkish in their support of Bush’s wars. Many are motivated by the idea the Rapture is coming - if they can only give Israel enough support so that it destroys itself!
Most disturbing for me, the most intolerant Jews and Christians are running governments and are in control of the world’s most powerful militaries. Practically all Muslim countries are run by secular governments. The two exceptions being Saudi Arabia(the biggest sponsor of terrorism and a key Western ally) and Iran. For all the hype Iran has never invaded nor attacked another country. As a so called state sponsor of terrorism it has never given support to any group that blew up a civilian airplane or a commuter train.
People do not deny that Islamic extremists are out there and a menace, like any other criminal. Yet they are only capable of brief bursts of activity. They do not have the means to reshape the world we live in. Christian and Jewish fascists have the means and are changing the Middle East, for the worst, every day. Here in the comfy, apathetic West we’d better hope their crimes don’t increase in scope to change our world too.
Posted by Paul Whiteside at August 29, 2006 01:42 PM
Khus Kum Jaha Pak
Posted by Peace at August 29, 2006 03:01 PM
Posted by Apostate at August 28, 2006 09:50 PM
“Eric is quibbling over semantics. While I know for a fact that those who coined the term Islamofacism had less than pure intentions, Islamofacism aptly describes the violent Islamic forces arrayed against the West AND the world.”
Hmm, hadn’t noticed the peculiar violent nature of Islamic forces but how do you expect them to go about repelling decades if not centuries of relentless western colonial and genocidal greed??? Even UN has the decency to grant people the right to resist an occupying force through force, which I would imagine entails some degree of “violence”???
“I’m a former muslim who if I disclosed my identity risk extreme ostracism, physical harm or even death. Theo V. Gogh lost his life for making a film about Islam. Tell me, what other religion do you risk for making a film about them?”
Ok, so if you face extreme physical risk, ostracism, even death then I would imagine either you are on the run or are still passing yourself off as a muslim and secretly living as an “apostate”???? If that is the case then how are you coping with this profound danger and posting on this website rather unfazed and carefree??? Or are you just making it all up…As for the ostracism, former christians and jews who have converted to Islam have faced the same, your predicament vis-a-vis Islam is not unique…As for Van Gogh, try making a movie about judiaism or even Zionism that is critical and based on undisputible facts, yet free of any bigotry and racism, and you will end up commtting financial and political suicide…What van gopher made was not even fit for the bottom feeding gutter tabloids…
“I find Eric’s wishy-washy approach to the issue of violent and intolerant Islam irresponsible and belies his claim to be speaking the truth. Extremism Islam is not a phantom created by the West, as a expedient bogeyman to scarify their populate and hence make selling increased military spending and foreign excursions easier.”
And do enlighten us as to exactly what is this scourge of “extremism islam”, all its tenets and manifestations would be really helpful…
“Islam has always been pretty violent, intolerant, oppressive religion that was spread at the tip of the sword, riding on the backs of horses that poured out of Arabia. Granted, that would be true for other religions, Christianity most notably. But Christianity reformed, Jews and others don’t follow ancient laws and customs (believed to be directive of God himself) like muslims feel obliged to… for example, Islam today is the only religion that has Apostasy as crime worthy of capital punishment. And I’m not talking about the laws of some despots (or puppet regimes) but THE great Islamic religion itself! THAT is facism. PERIOD, no matter who you like to slice and dice it.”
There you have it, attending too many Pat Robertson events…what hate website are you copying and pasting this utter rubbish…Do you realize how bigoted and racist you sound???
“Like Christianity, Islam is aggresively proselyting religion… intent on converting (if they could) the whole world into Islam and reconstitute the Khaliifa. If that happened, Eric wouldn’t be able to write his ideas on public forum like this one. Islam is at war with EVERYONE. Not just the West. Everywhere where nonmuslims and muslims come into contact, there’s strife. Why is that? The answer is Islam needs REFORMATION or it’ll continue to react violently to a world it can’t make any headways and be joint partner.”
So when are these extremist hordes taking over????
Posted by williamwallace at August 29, 2006 04:08 PM
Um, I thought that the extremist elements of the Abrahamic religions WERE presently taking over… Christian/Muslim/Jewish fundies are the ones taking main stage now - at least, that’s what I can pick up from not having been under a rock lately.
They’re doing a good job at it, too - they get us to bicker about which “side” is “good” and which “side” is evil, when we’re actually on the losing side, and ALL of the extremists are currently winning against us.
Anyone have any actual solutions?
Tovy
Posted by Tovy at August 29, 2006 04:18 PM
At last, we have one voice which dares to say the truth !! The truth which is continuously distorted, twisted, hidden, forged, …etc, almost everything else except being honestly stated.
God bless you.
Posted by Abou Se3da at August 29, 2006 04:28 PM
Joshua wrote:
{“but as long as the West continues to kill large portions of Islamic people for profits”}
Apostate’s retort:
“Where is this happening? I’m being serious here, I consider myself well informed person but I can’t account for your claim that the West is killing off large portions of the Islamic world. I know it’s utterly false in my native country which is like 99% muslim.
Where is this happening?
Try, for instance;
-Occupied Palestine
-Afghanistan
-Iraq
-Lebanon
The killings are of recent events and also on going from the past.
The above-mentioned lands and peoples are not the only benefactors of Western benevolence, especially that of the real axis of evil (umrikka/uk/Israel).
Almost all the nations of Europe to varying degrees have Muslim blood on their hands.
“I’m being serious here, I consider myself well informed….. Islamic world.”
I presume that the degree of your seriousness correlates to how many people are killed, is almost 900-1000 people dead in Lebanon constitute mass killings in your view.
Is the ongoing and constant carnage in Palestine,Afghanistan and Iraq, of any consequence to you, where thousands upon thousands have been and are being killed by the explicit and complicit actions of the West?
Please, lets not split hairs as to who is pulling the trigger.
“well informed” huh, my foot! I wonder where you are getting all your information.
What are you being serious about, your casual attitude about Islam and its adherents or the inconsistencies within and of your own character?
You claim “Islam needs REFORMATION” reformation to what? To what we witness in the evangelical strain of Christianity in umrikka today, where every tradition of Christ is being crucified as he was.
Christianity had its reformation in the Middle Ages with Martin Luther, to what it has become today, subverted from its original path.
Did the believers of this faith become anymore enlightened from their predecessors?
The West in the last 100 years has killed more people on the planet. Who should we hold responsible for all the massacres, reformed Christianity, the religion of Christ (The prince of Peace) or the misguided adherents who profess this faith, but at every turn commit criminal acts contrary to its doctrine.
Islam does not need reformation of this kind; it needs sincere and observant adherents who are faithful to its tenets.
Don’t equate the irregularities of this world as inconsistencies with any of the cardinal faiths. The inherent inconsistencies lie within us.
Scapegoating a faith is popular and easy; taking issue with one’s own weaknesses on the other hand can indeed be a daunting proposition.
Look to weaknessess within yourself Mr. Apostate
as to your own renunciation. Stop blaming Islam.
Posted by oldfan at August 29, 2006 04:44 PM
Peace:
Please translate “Khus Kum Jaha Pak”
Posted by oldfan at August 29, 2006 04:56 PM
Please read the article to the link provided, it is quite relevant to the ongoing discussion.
The US Peace Movement and Hezbollah
The Big Picture (Don’t Look, Now)
By JAMES BROOKS
http://www.counterpunch.org/brooks08292006.html
Posted by oldfan at August 29, 2006 05:04 PM
Williamwallace:
Re: “As for Van Gogh, try making a movie about judiaism or even Zionism that is critical and based on undisputible facts, yet free of any bigotry and racism, and you will end up commtting financial and political suicide…”
But you won’t get gutted like pig in the street. Making movies and drawing cartoons won’t get a bounty on your head. You see a distinction, no?
“What van gopher made was not even fit for the bottom feeding gutter tabloids…”
So what? So what if his Submission is total ass? Some assclown gets upset about slandering his mythology to the point that he shoots and stabs a man to death in the middle of the street, in the middle of the day, and you don’t even come out to deplore that kind of heinous shit? His murder, by a fanatical, psychopathic Muslim, is reprehensible and with your garbage like calling him “van gopher” you show yourself to fit in real nicely in this cesspool of a forum. You’re a cretin on par with Rampart.
Posted by Bino at August 29, 2006 06:54 PM
I think Tovy is on to something when he speaks of the three Abrahamic religions together. The problem, at its most fundamental ideological/psychological level, is Monotheism. The logic of belief in the One God is single-mindedness, obsession/possession, totalitarianism, and destruction. (I half-fancy that the Judeo-Christian(-Muslim) God is really the Greek god of the Underworld, invisible and with an unspeakable name.) Shakespeare brilliantly reveals the logic and psychology of both Judaism and Christianity in The Merchant of Venice, which the film of a year or two ago, despite changes, manages to capture.
Posted by hyperbolus at August 29, 2006 07:29 PM
In short, Apostate, you make a fundamental error by applying the term Islamofascist to an entire religious group; moreover, this error is so obvious that it undermines, negates even, everything oc value you might have to say- you lose all credability when you start applying such limiting terminology to a huge group of people. You might be able to make a better argument if you could explain how all Muslims are Islamofascists in all places.
Islamofascist is also a derogatory term invented to discredit and further associate Muslims with fascists (of course)and dictators such as Hitler & Mussolini; thus, apply the same connotations the US has used in the past to villify other created enemies such as Ho Chih Minh in their efforts to keep the war gears grinding and the profit margins climbing while robbing the American people of their taxes and benefits to pay for it all.
Again, the academic and accepted term for extreme, militant Muslims is Islamism/Islamists. The creation of a new more “arm twisting” word was only necessary to add negative connotations and apply it wrongly.
I am not denying that Islamism does not exist nor am I denying that bad people can calim to be Muslims. Of course, we all know that bad people- killers exist in all religions, cultures, nations, and so on. However, to invent and apply a term such as this one so completely over a diverse group of people is irresponible and only contributes to racism and xenophobia.
Posted by Joshua at August 29, 2006 08:44 PM
Williamwallace:
“but how do you expect them to go about repelling decades if not centuries of relentless western colonial and genocidal greed???”
As far as rhetorical questions go, this one is unmitigatedly pathetic. I mean, you make it sound as if Western colonialism is different from say Muslim colonaliasm, Eastern Colonialism, African Colonialism, Americas Colonialism. Colonialism and what you call “genocidal greed” are human condition found in all people. Every group of people extant today were, at point or another in their long history, colonialists or were themselves colonalised. That said, who are these deranged, religiously inspired lunatics liberating? Colonialism ended eons ago. Who are these muslims nations they’re trying to free of foriegn control? Somalia? Egypt? Syria? Please, pray tell.
“Even UN has the decency to grant people the right to resist an occupying force through force, which I would imagine entails some degree of “violence”???”
I have no bone to pick with that. SOmetimes violence is the only recourse available to the oppressed. I aint no pacifist, rather pragmatist who understands sometimes one needs to get down and dirty to right a wrong.
But NEVER under any circumstances is flying planes into office buildings acceptable. Or killing dissidents be they apostates or political activits. Or the sensless oppression and wholesale slaughter of your OWN flesh and blood… tragically, the brunt of the violence and mistreatment dished out to muslims worldwide is carried out by Islamofascists. Case in point: Iraq, Afghanistan.
“Ok, so if you face extreme physical risk, ostracism, even death then I would imagine either you are on the run or are still passing yourself off as a muslim and secretly living as an “apostate”????”
One of those is true, yes. Worst part of all is I live in the West.
“If that is the case then how are you coping with this profound danger and posting on this website rather unfazed and carefree???”
That’s just dumb question. The internet provides anonymity! I can say things on the net, like disclose my faith, that I can’t do in real life. Why? One word. Islamofacism!
“As for the ostracism, former christians and jews who have converted to Islam have faced the same, your predicament vis-a-vis Islam is not unique”
Not death threats looming over your head though. You can denounce either religion and still continue your life relatively undisrupted. Heck, you can even start a site to denigrate both religions and still be safe. In the West, no one gives a hoot who leaves, joins or says what about any religion. Except, of course, Islam. Islam is the ONLY religion that punishes those that reject it. Apostasy is a crime punishable by death. As a Murtad, there’s a price over my head. I’ve committed no crime, all I did was walk away from a religion that I never volunteered to join in the first place. What’s absolutely unacceptable about all of this is not that they exist and are part of Islamic ethos but that they’ll still practiced.
“As for Van Gogh, try making a movie about judiaism or even Zionism that is critical and based on undisputible facts, yet free of any bigotry and racism, and you will end up commtting financial and political suicide”
I have no problem with financial, political and other fallouts resulting from a movie I make that rubs many ppl the wrong way. It comes with the territory. My right to offend is respected by the law and those I offended. Unfortunately, Islamofacist not only reject the right of personal expression but would kill you for it.
“And do enlighten us as to exactly what is this scourge of “extremism islam”, all its tenets and manifestations would be really helpful…”
Sure. Criminalising freedom of artistic expression, freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of political affialation, dissent, gender equality… how about those for start.
“what hate website are you copying and pasting this utter rubbish…Do you realize how bigoted and racist you sound???”
This accusation is driven by personal bigotry, not anything I said. What leads you to accuse me of cribbing what I wrote from others? Ad hominen attacks are the trademark of those that don’t have anything to say.
By the way, the fact you didn’t contest what I said but rather tried to discredit me through unsubstantiated allegations, is proof positive in my view to have stirred you up real well to the point of leaving you out of ideas for rebuttal.
“So when are these extremist hordes taking over????”
Oh, they’ll never takeover. But they’re like natural disasters, inevitable but sufferable. I don’t fear them at all and no one (Westerners most of all) should.
Posted by Apostate at August 29, 2006 09:13 PM
Excellent as always, Mr. Margolis. Your essay reminded me of something once said by Robert Anton Wilson: “Basically, rich people don’t do their own killing. They hire governments to do it. Poor people have to do their own killing, so they get called terrorists. When they say they won’t negotiate with terrorists, that means rich people won’t negotiate with poor people. That’s all that means. But if the poor people keep up that terrorism their war of liberation or whatever if they keep it up long enough, eventually all the rich people have to negotiate with them. Just like White South Africa had to negotiate with Mandela, the British have decided that they’ve got to negotiate with Jerry Adams. The Israelis decided they had to negotiate with Yasser Arafat. Eventually, they do have to negotiate with the poor people. And that’ll happen in this country, too. We’re going to have to negotiate with the poor people, eventually, although this’ll be the last country in the world to do it, probably.”
Posted by JerkyLeBoeuf at August 29, 2006 10:09 PM
Hey did you all know Eric is the largest shareholder of Jamieson Vitamins? Interesting character this Eric Margolis. Nice column as usual.
Posted by francoamerica at August 30, 2006 12:19 AM
Oldfan:
Khas kum, jahan pak. Shit gone, environment clean. This was a comment on “Apostate” leaving the religion. LOL. Well said.
Commenting on Apostate’s claims…. what I think… To get political asylum in “”the west”, for best results, one has to claim that his or her life was under threat.
He showed shocking ignorance of Islam… and no, I’m not going help him by telling how and where. Want me to educate a fraud so that he will do better next time? To all us Muslims here, it is clear who and what he is.
I also do not need a verbose dialogue on the finer points of Islamic law. Such things give me a headache and this Apostate guy is the kind who would want to “debate” everything under the sun…. including things like “why is the sky blue”. No thanks.
Anyway, notice how Bino is still sore at me. LOL
Posted by Rampart at August 30, 2006 12:45 AM
To Apostate:
Thank you for sharing your story and views with us. In case you are daunted by your reception do realise that we are entering what appears to be a long standing war of words. As this is an open unmoderated forum and those typekey access accounts are free it is to be expected that we will come across posters of varying quality. Look through some of the previous blogs and you will get the idea. Some can be vulgar and others can be reasonable. It has even been suggested that some posters (Joshua, Oldfan, Ghawley etc) are the same person using multiple logins to bash their opponents..
To Rampart:
Isn’t there a major religious schism in Islam, namely, between Shi’atu’Ali and Sunni, with attendant doctrinal differences? You sound like you have been brought up more within the orthodox tradition of Sunni Islam, if you are even Muslim that is. Maybe he was brought up within the traditions of the Shi’a? Afterall, history shows them to be more zealous, militant and ‘bloodthirsty’. Especially their ‘dissident’ offshoot, the Ismailis. Is he really a fraud or is it quite possible that he was just a different kind of Muslim?
Posted by gabrielle at August 30, 2006 03:09 AM
To all present:
I present two links below for your consideration. This will be relevant mainly to those who reside in the West but will also be of interest to those who don’t. Is the extreme Left in the West mixing up a dangerous cocktail for the gullible voter?
Counterpunch Defends Anti-Semitism
http://moonbatcentral.com/wordpress/?p=244
The Lunatic Left. Ward Churchill and Counterpunch.com
http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=12987
Conflicts, attract all sorts of interests..
Posted by gabrielle at August 30, 2006 03:14 AM
Oldfan:
“Try, for instance;
-Occupied Palestine
-Afghanistan
-Iraq
-Lebanon
The killings are of recent events and also on going from the past.”
What’s happening in all of those countries can hardly be deemed to constitute “killing off large portions of the Islamic world.” For one, they make up only tiny segment of the Islamic world (about 50 million), which is 1.5 billion large. Second, Lebanon and Palestine fought asymetrically much larger and ruthless enemy. They faired worse. The other two countries see day in and day out Islamists or Islamofacists showing no regard for the lifes muslims. Today, 24 Iraqi civilians were killed after a bomb was set-off in busy market. Where’s your outrage?
In my beloved continent of Africa, the Genocide in Darfur seems not to perturb concerned muslims like you. Here you have one of the largest mass killings of muslim civilians in ages and it slids by unnoticed like water under duck’s derriere. I guess not all muslim suffering is equal, heh?
“Christianity had its reformation in the Middle Ages with Martin Luther, to what it has become today, subverted from its original path.
Did the believers of this faith become anymore enlightened from their predecessors?”
The reformation didn’t occur in the Middle Ages but in fact much later. However, without the reformation the idea of enlightenment wouldn’t have been concievable. Christianity, like Islam today, was socio-econo-political system of the Middle Ages… unsuitable for modern world. This is why reformation — most importanly decoupling matters of personal faith from governance — is imperative if muslims world over want to better their situation.
“The West in the last 100 years has killed more people on the planet.”
The West has alot of blood on it’s hand but I ask you: who doesn’t? Mao’s China killed God knows how many millions of Chinese. HOw about Stalin’s Russia. Or North Korea. Saddam’s Iraq. All the tyranical rulers of Africa and Asia didn’t fail to impress. Why let them off the hook?
Posted by Apostate at August 30, 2006 10:14 AM
Gabrielle:
I am impressed.
Hanfi-muslim at your service. Hanfi is the predominant religion of all countries that end their name with “stan”. Central Asian in origin. Pakistan is 80% Hanfi. So figuring that out wasn’t hard. But most people don’t know such things.
Is it possible Apostate might be a Shia? I doubt it. I think Oldfan can speak Persian? (just a guess). If so, he is probably from the Shia tradition. You can ask Oldfan what he thinks of this guy.
So is it possible he really is an ex-muslim of some sort? Sure. Anything’s possible. Hell, I might be Eric Margolis himself in disguise. Who’s to know?
As for the Ismaili sect…. I would disagree with you there. Yes, I’ve read books in which it is said these guys are from the Assassin sect from the Crusades. And they have some very weird customs and traditions they don’t talk about .. specially those concerning the Agha Khan and newly wed brides. (nope… I’m not joking)…. But really… I’ve know many Islmailis here, and they seem like wimps. Totally harmless… and their sect doesn’t seem harsh at all.
Posted by Rampart at August 30, 2006 10:21 AM
All Bush is trying to do is simplify the description of the enemy we’re fighting- the enemy that killed nearly 3,000 innocent Americans on 9/11 and thousands more around the world since Iran become an Islamic totalitarian state in 1979.
What do you call these people if not Islamic Fascists? Would you prefer Islamic extremists? Or something a bit nicer, like Islamic freedom fighters? What freedom are they fighting for when they deliberately target innocent civilians?
Bin Laden and Ahmedninejad are true fascists, in every sense of the word. They have hi-jacked a religion in order to start a war with the West and gain power in their own societies. Democratic people can see straight through their lies and deception and are too powerful and resourceful to be defeated. That is why we must promote democracy as much as possible in the Middle East, even if it angers those who stand to lose: dictators, clerics, and men especially.
It’s time for the Middles East to join the rest of the world, because it will eventually have no choice in a global economy. That doesn’t mean it gives up its culture; it just accepts the way we live without preaching intolerance and hatred against infidels. True Progressives will want to see progress in the Middle East, if not only for the benefit of the people in that reason, but the benefit of the entire world.
Posted by NoamChumpsky at August 30, 2006 12:13 PM
Nothing like beheading a few guys and killing a 14 year old kid because you don’t like his brother’s job. Let the good times (and the heads!) roll in Pakistan!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060830/ts_nm/security_pakistan_dc
Posted by Bino at August 30, 2006 12:54 PM
Chumpsky,
Again, there already is a word for militant, extremist Muslims- Islamism/Islamists.
Again, Bush applies the term Islamofascists in a broad sweeping manner to include more these, but all Muslims.
What is the term for extremist militant Christians in America: Patriots.
What about extremist militant Jewish persons?
Democracy? Your own president does not believe in Democracy. The US has military bases in Egypt and Saudi Arabia where there is no Democracy.
Sure they have elections in Egypt, but there is only one candidate and anyone who tries to run ends up dead. This is fully supported the US administration
Do not lecture people about Democracy until you are able to come terms with the undemocratic way in which the US government functions. Who do you get to vote for? Two people from two parties that differ very little from each other in their goals and how to achieve them.
The US is in the middle of a crucial point in history in that it is going beyond what any previous president could have stomached in achieving its imperialistic goals.
Wasn’t the 1979 Iran government originally propped up with the support of the US (or am I thinking of the earlier regime change)?
‘NoamChumpsky’ - is that some kind of slant against Noam Chompsky; currently America’s biggest TRUE patriot and recently included in a comprehensive list of the worlds top twenty intellectuals; MIT proffessor and linguistics GOD.
Progress in the middle east? What does that mean? First, why dont we stop bombing and killing their women and children at random so they can have a chance at progress. THe more we bomb them, the more credit and power we give to the Islamist parties.
The other thing the term ‘Islamofascist’ accomplishes is to create ridiculous debates like this, thus, taking the attention off of the fascist policies of the US and Canada’s realignment with them (although we were never far off, but now it is much worse.
THe US is in a war against a nation that did not attack them; did not have weapons of mass destruction, did not harbour the people responsible for 9/11.
IN fact, the US imposed economic sanctions on Iraq which is a Weapon of Mass Destruction that caused the death of hundreds of thousands of children alone.
Peace Out
Posted by Joshua at August 30, 2006 01:45 PM
Read the article you posted carefully Bino- a body was found of a 14 year old boy.
Everything else in it is quotes of people theorizing what happened. NO ONE KNOWS! It is all suspect this and suspect that. Except for the body and the age- nothing else is fact.
What does an article like this say about anything anyways? All it does is point fingers in order to say yeah, this is a vilolent place and people are pissed off; some people are misguided, but posting articles (and your not the only one) as amunition to say who is worse or whose fault this is just sticks and stones.
Please stop poking each others eyes out and open them; look around and realize that the whole mess is a product of post-colonial imperialism which continues today. Oppression and domination of the poor by the rich.
Our system has failed miserably; capitalism (or free market economies as they like to call it now) is a joke. People suffer more than ever in this world and our technology is used primarily for killing; not saving.
Articles like this have no relevance; in fact, most journalism is totally irrevelant unless you can read between (or behind) the lines.
Cheers,
Posted by Joshua at August 30, 2006 01:53 PM
Apostate:
At the outset, let it be clear that I don’t condone killing. Your presumptions of my lack of concern of killings in any part of the world are incorrect.
If the topic of discussion had been Africa my views would have been different.
My sympathies lie with all the dispossessed and marginalized people of the world, irrespective of their creed, colour or religion.
You on the other hand are much more focused on spewing your hatred and reserve your venom towards Islam.
I expected that, you were going to split hairs about the numbers and who does the actual killing, having seen through you I expected the response you posted, the reason for my proviso about your seriousness.
No one is letting any mass killers off the hook, but lets keep the thread of discussion in context. That said, you seem to be inordinately focused in deflecting from the ills of those who are inflicting suffering on a massive scale in the name of democracy and enlightenment.
You and your type are very transparent ingratiating yourself to the prevailing Western evangelical hubris in order to butter your bread. Need I say anymore!
Rampart:
I only wish I could speak Persian, no I not from Iran. As for Apostate, whether the person may be a he, she or it, the word “apostate” in all its connotations says it all.
This type of a person is like a flag that flutters in whichever direction the pevailing wind blows, they are for hire.
Did you notice Rampart, another poster that prefers the simple mind of GWB. I guess simple thoughts for simple minds.
A preponderance of spear-carriers, it seems that Tony B may have popularized this vocation.
Highly delusional and simple minds that think they live in a democracy!
Posted by oldfan at August 30, 2006 01:54 PM
Rampart: Thanks for the translation.
Now about that bi**h which you call a Ba**t**d the reason (he/she or somewhere in-between which by our definition would be called a Ha**ra.) so arrogantly defend official line is because one as you said he/she is paid, the second reason is that if today Israel accepts that what they did was unfair and from now on they will try to be fair then the only cover the Hindu H***I had would be blown out and India would be exposed on the world stage as a human rights violators and they won’t have any protection. Lets face it if Israel said we are going to correct ourselves then who is going to give an Indian an excuse. No one.
An example:
http://hrw.org/press/2003/06/india070103.htm
And who said that B**h can be cured.
Posted by Peace at August 30, 2006 01:58 PM
Hitler achieved nothing from propaganda and nor will the current people in power corridors but yes Hitler made the lives miserable for the common people and so will the current supermen.
Posted by Peace at August 30, 2006 04:02 PM
If Iran has killed thousands of people around the world since 1979 then it should be easy to list their crimes. Well go ahead…because I can’t think of one terrorist act they were behind. Not the London bombings, nor Madrid’s commuter trains, nor 9/11, nor the African embassies, nor Air India, nor Lockerbie…
I’m surprised at how well I’m doing. Is it that we’ve really had very few “terrorist” attacks over the last twenty odd years?
Anyway, let’s hear all about Iran’s crimes against humanity…
Posted by Paul Whiteside at August 30, 2006 04:02 PM
Apostate is a shill, probably a pal of bino’s or mikeal’s, if not one of them, so don’t take his half-cocked pronouncements seriously.
Gabrielle inserted: “It has even been suggested that some posters (Joshua, Oldfan, Ghawley etc) are the same person using multiple logins to bash their opponents.” The only guy to suggest that was one of the Israeli fans, mikeal, so could gabrielle be mikeal?
Very sad if the thick-headed Zionists have resorted to this tactic. They have one thing in common - to discredit Eric and the resistance to Israeli Occupation with red herrings, rubbish and innuendo.
Most cults, ranging from today’s major religions to new-age, discourage or have proscriptions against leaving, Judaism included.
About Zionism, that fundamentalist expression of Judaism, judge it by its actions: from today’s Globe and Mail:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli troops launched airstrikes on the outskirts of Gaza City and exchanged gunfire with Palestinian militants Wednesday, killing eight people, officials said.
Israeli forces have been searching for smuggling tunnels and explosives in Gaza City’s Shijaiyeh neighbourhood since the weekend and have killed a total of 18 Palestinians, most (according to the Israel military) of them militants, doctors said.
Troops also flattened crops, destroyed greenhouses and chicken coops and uprooted dozens of trees on Wednesday, residents said. The army had no comment on the report about the destruction. In recent years, troops have routinely destroyed farming areas and orchards in the Gaza Strip.
Also among those slain were a 14-year-old boy, shot as he gathered with a group of people to watch the fighting, hospital officials said, and a 30-year-old man killed by a heavy calibre bullet to the head as he stood on the roof of his house.
——————————
Me: —Give a racist Zionist a uniform, a gun or tank or bulldozer, and he will vandalize or kill to advance his ethnic cleansing God-given mission.
———————————
Fran, welcome. I grew up on Cowboys and Indians too (and have an affinity for horses as a result). I recall Pallidin (Have Gun, Will Travel), The Rifleman, Hopalong Cassidy, The Lone Ranger, Maverick, Rawhide, and more. Yes, resisting the occupation of the greedy and dangerous European with primitive tools and techniques would be labelled “terrorism” today.
I have to say the Zionists like bino et al are making this site tedious, which is their goal. So I will focus on the inputs of those who are intelligent and offer links that enhance insight and information, and engage in discussions with them.
Posted by ghawley at August 30, 2006 05:19 PM
Reports of thousands of cluster bombs being implemented in the illegal attack on Lebanon by Israel indicate that 90% of them were used in last few days before the ceasefire when everyone knew a ceasefire was on the horizon.
These are the kinds of actions taken by Israel and the US (you can not seperate the two) that leave no room for peaceful resolutions.
How can peace be achieved when foreign policy is shoot first and spin later.
And who do cluster bombs kill mostly? hmmm… civilians. THey will be around for years.
Again, further American made terrorism… Made in the USA!
Posted by Joshua at August 30, 2006 05:47 PM
Ok If I cant use the Term “Islamic Fascism” Can I at least label you the “Terrorist Apologist”. What a twisted article. Dangerous people preaching twisted nonsense. On Second thought “Islamo Fascist” has a strong momentum and it illustrates a segment of Muslims that preach like Fascists and use Nazi Propaganda. I really fail to see Margolis point? But? What part of his Journalism is really about twisting, manipulating, and Covert racism all put together in a sterile package for Intellectual Racists to feast upon. Most of it, in my humble opinion. Twisted.
Posted by Ted at August 30, 2006 09:32 PM
Excuse me Ted, but no said you cant use the term. The point is that the term is used to spread racism and xenophobia towards all Muslims so the US can justify illegal, inhumane, and imperialistic wars against the Muslim world as a whole.
You also need to come to terms with the US being the number one exporter of terrorism. The US administration uses the term to include anyone defending themselves from imperialism by violent means.
In fact, war IS terrorism. What do you think economic sanctions were towards Iraq- terrorism and a real WMD.
You dont see Margolis’s point? He is quite direct:
The term `Islamofascist’ is utterly without meaning, but packed with emotional explosives. It is a propaganda creation worthy Dr. Goebbles, and the latest expression of the big lie technique being used by neocons in Washington’s propaganda war against its enemies in the Muslim World.
It would be like calling ALL Christians EVERYWHERE ChistoFascists in order to invade, rob, and destroy their land by justifiction: they are all evil and must be destroyed.
Unfortunately, it sounds like you are already convinced that all Muslims are terrorists; you do say “segment”, but that is not how the term is being applied. The media and the government are creating an atmosphere (have been for a while) of mob mentality in the American psyche and have done this in every single war they have waged in order to bring the public on their side.
Posted by Joshua at August 30, 2006 11:35 PM
Mr.Former Muslim, there is no compulsion Islam, you never read this Quran.
you can worship humans, cows, rats, or whatever you can imagine, it is not the business of any muslims, and you can follow whatever life style you want, for an example porn-culture and friends-with-benefit life style or whatever, and muslims in general don’t give a dame, what ones do with their life, as long as you don’t go and tell them follow your way of living at gun point.
Please read these testimonies, from an average Joe to Doctors and Ph.D holders, what they are discovered in Islam.
I can imagine you never knew much about Islam or muslims.
Posted by Micheal at August 31, 2006 12:47 AM
Posted by Micheal at August 31, 2006 12:49 AM
Micheal:
For God’s sake, man! Don’t educate this guy! LOL
What are you doing??? He is a fraud… let him be a transparent fraud.
Posted by Rampart at August 31, 2006 03:01 AM
LOL - I’m a “Zionist” now, am I gwahley? You’re pathetic. I ruin the site? Pot…kettle…
Here is some good info:
Two days after the official spokesman of the Hamas government in the Palestinian Authority castigated terrorists (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1154525954624)
for turning Gaza into a chaotic nightmare, PA president Mahmoud Abbas demanded an end to provocations against Israel
(http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1154525974189)
Posted by Bino at August 31, 2006 08:48 AM
For a glimpse into the present and future in Israel and the Mid-East, see:
“After Lebanon, Israel is Looking for More Wars”
at
http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0276.htm#Top
Jonathan Cook is a writer and journalist. He is a non-Zionist resident of Nazareth, Israel. His book, “Blood and Religion: The Unmasking of the Jewish and Democratic State”, is published by Pluto Press. His website is www.jkcook.net.
Posted by ghawley at August 31, 2006 09:45 AM
bino, try slipping your boots into a Palestinian’s sandlss. Again, I ask you, how would YOU resist the brutal, illegal, and immoral occupation of your homeland by the Israeli Zionist machine if you lived in the territories?
Your links blame the victims, no matter who espoused the views. Resistance to Israel occupation results in collective punishments and vandalism to civilian infrastructure. Of course the Palestinian PM is concerned about that, but he shoudl be castigating Israel for their planned reactions and for not addressing the underlying causes of these annoying but hardly effective attacks by home made rockets. Or, by posting those links, do you mean to suggest that the Palestinians forego resistance with whatever primitive tools are at their disposal. Or should they fight like your countrymen, with US-built jets and cluster bombs and laser guided missles, and undertake kidnappings by commandos disguised as Orthodox Jews? Or should they simply roll over and let Israel continue to fuck them? Good grief, bino, where is your understanding and compassion?
I have asked these questions of you before but only get more nonsense about Israel being threatened, nothing about retreating to the pre-67 borders with compensation for those driven out of present-day Israel by the Irgun and Stern terrorist gangs.
I only bother with you because I can tell you are young and still fresh from the brainwashing religious schooling and are striving to know more. Apostate (who is a shill) talked about the consequwences of leaving Islam. Can you leave your family and belief system behind to venture into unsupported waters like Jonathan Cook has n\managed to do? How has he done that? By having an open mind and inquiring after the TRUTH. It takes courage to go against party and family lines but the liberation of one’s intellect and collective soul (what karmic good can come from oppressing others?) calls for it.
Posted by ghawley at August 31, 2006 10:05 AM
Religion of Peace strikes again:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/31/headlines/headlines_30012441.php
Posted by Bino at August 31, 2006 11:05 AM
Again, what is your point?
Posting articles like this with no qualification is vague and misleading.
I fail to see your point; yes, violence is used by all walks of life, but finding obscure articled and using them to establish that so and so is violent or not violent contributes nothing to a meaningful article.
Everyone knows that violence persists in the middle east by many parties.
This is beside the point that most articles; especially the ones extracted from politically motivated sites are nothing more than claims.
There is no way to know the truth are the details behind them.
thanks for playing…. please try again…
Posted by Joshua at August 31, 2006 11:53 AM
*B*loody
*I*diot
*NO*nintellectual
Or….
*B*rains
*I*nside
*N*ether
*O*rifice
Or… when I kick this guy…
*B*alls
IN
*O*rbit
Now that I’ve raised the bar for creativity, yes, BINO, please try again.
Posted by Rampart at August 31, 2006 12:26 PM
Okay, Rampart - you’ve drawn the line so thin now that it’s hard to tell the difference between your posts and Bino’s posts.
In fact, I hate to say this, but Bino’s posts are generally linear and thought-out, and yours are becoming emotional reactions only.
You’re actually giving him credibility when you do that.
Keep a close watch on that - You’re very intelligent, and I’d hate to see your consciousness get vectored automatically because you’re being triggered automatically.
Now, if I can just take a couple seconds to examine Rampart’s and Bino’s key differences in attidude, I would say that Rampart tends to be forgiving towards the Muslim world, and Bino tends to be forgiving towards the West.
So, thank you both very much for taking this present conflict into this forum.
Tovy
Posted by Tovy at August 31, 2006 01:06 PM
To Rampart:
The Assassin sect from the Crusades.. now that would be a whole other topic of conversation.
meanwhile..
Posted by gabrielle at August 31, 2006 01:20 PM
To all present:
I present another link below for your consideration. This is a follow up of one of the two previous articles, and in fact can be accessed through one of them. Agree or disagree, it makes for an interesting read and provides some food for thought. Is Leftist anti-Zionism the same as anti-Semitism?
Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1095694,00.html
Is the extreme Left in the West playing the blame game too? Limbo-low anyone?
Posted by gabrielle at August 31, 2006 01:23 PM
Already as we may all have noticed that Bino has managed to divert the spotlight from the real issues at hand, ” the plots and crimes of the zionists in umrikka and israel.”
The posts from the likes of Bino et al are here not for discussion or understanding of issues, as many of us know, believe and yet we keep falling in their trap.
I for one will try to keep my comments pertinent to the topic and will minimize my energies in addressing these pests.
Having said that, think of Bino et al like those pesky flies that sit and hover on dung. They are just a nuisance that we all have to live with. Filth!!
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 01:34 PM
Interesting article gabrielle. I need to read it again in more detail, but it certainly makes some valid points regarding perception and interpretation about Israel/Jewish policy and the discussion of such condidering the historical significance of the persecution of Jews through time.
The article tackles a complex issue of communication. It is difficult to discuss the actions of Israel as a state only. Of course, it is a state made up of one dominant cultural group.
The people of Israel, I think, certainly have a right to exist as does everyone living being. THey have a right to be respected and treated well as do we all. Unfortunately, the people of Israel have been led by monomaniacal leaders over the years in going beyond the right to self-determination. And, it is difficult to criticize such actions without sounding like one is criticizing an entire religious group; moreover, it is doubly hard when politicians twist constructive criticisms to sound as if they are anti-semitical comments.
When talking about Zionism or what one feels about Zionism, it is important to clarify what definition of Zionism one is operating under; there is a great deal of debate within the Jewish community as to what Zionism means exactly.
It is important to criticize the illegal/inhumane actions of Israel, the US or any state in a way that does not disrespect the religion or the culture of the people of that state. How is Israel as a state- not a religous group, want to contribute to the world? What kind of role does it want to play? How does it want to be a part of the solutions for peace? What is it doing to foster relationships of mutual trust and respect with its neighbour states in contributing to a world of co-existence and cooperation?
For example-
Israel’s overzealous response to the kidnapping of the two soldiers is widely condemended by most nations; this is in-line with international law and most credible international law/political scientist intellectuals are of near mutual agreement.
Having said that, I do believe many critics of Israel are largely anti-semites as well and harbour ill intentions towards Jewish people out of sure barbaric hatred.
Posted by Joshua at August 31, 2006 02:17 PM
Thanks gabrielle for steering us back to the topic.
The article you cited presents an interesting and well-crafted perspective on the situation.
I tend to think that many Jewish intellectuals inside and outside israel, like Margolis, Chomsky, G. Levy and many others have thought out their positions quite clearly before embarking on their criticism of israel.
“Is the extreme Left in the West playing the blame game too?”
Since you posed the question, gabrielle, what are your thoughts on the articles and on the subject in general?
Is anti-zionism the same as anti-Semitism or being anti-Jew in your view, what do you think?
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 02:58 PM
Joshua:
Please could you elaborate as to who are the “Semites”.
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 03:09 PM
Another piece of interesting reading eluciditating on the nefarious alliances in;
Behind the Plan to bomb Iran
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH31Ak01.html
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 03:23 PM
Globalization is a sinking Titanic with the world leaders as its panic crew. So, don’t worry about too much as who hates who everything is going towards its logical conclusion.
I wish for every humane to live in peace. Have a nice Day!
Posted by Peace at August 31, 2006 05:00 PM
Rampart:
I recently read a report about troubles in Baluchistan Province, Akbar khan, a nationalist leader being Killed by the Pakistani army.
The writer of the article asserted that the umrikkans are behind this in order to acquire bases there for the upcoming war on Iran.
Seymour Hersh has already alluded that commandoes have launched penetration raids across Pakistan’s Baluch border into Iran.
Do you have any more info as to the validity of this story.
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 06:11 PM
Semite -Semitic speaking person; Hebrews, Arabs, Aramenas, Ethiopians, Phoenicians, Babylonians.
The word has come to mean in various contexts- A Jew.
Semites would be the plural of Semite.
Posted by Joshua at August 31, 2006 06:12 PM
a good joke!
An Israeli recently arrives at London’s Heathrow airport. As he fills out a form, the customs officer asks him: “Occupation?”
The Israeli promptly replies: “No, just visiting!”
Posted by Micheal at August 31, 2006 10:37 PM
“Having said that, I do believe many critics of Israel are largely anti-semites as well and harbour ill intentions towards Jewish people out of sure barbaric hatred.”
Joshua:
In light of your statement above and your correct description of the Semitic people as “Semite – Semitic speaking persons; Hebrew, Arabs, Aramenas, Ethiopians, Phoenicians, Babylonians.”
Am I to believe that the critics you described as anti-Semitic as well as harbouring ill intentions towards Semites include all the Semitic groups you mentioned in your description.
Do you not think that the majority of the critics of israel are just critical of only the zionists, particularly those that are causing all the havoc in peoples lives and are not anti-Semites or anti- Jewish.
I think a distinction needs to be made here that zionists do not necessarily speak for all Jews, an argument can also be made that this group has effectively hijacked the aspirations of all of Jewry and subverted the entire religion.
If we restrict our discussion to the articles cited in this thread it also includes many Jewish critics of great renown who are extremely extremely upset and critical of what is happening, how are we to reconcile that Jewish critics can also be anti-Semitic.
Very good Micheal. It may as well be true, since it started all there in the first place.
Posted by oldfan at August 31, 2006 11:22 PM
Sorry, Oldfan,
I am saying we should communicate effectively regarding the actions of Israel as a nation state without using language could sound anti-Jewish.
The focus should be on the actions and not the relious group in general.
My last sentence was me admitting that some critics of Israel are merely anti-Jewish for whatever reason and, thus, it is extremely difficult engaging them on a meaningful/productive level.
your questions:
No, I use the word anti-semite in the contemporary sense and mean that some people critical of Israel are also anti-semites or, to be more specific, anti-Jewish.
I do think, at least I hope, that most people critical of Israel are critical of their actions as a state and not of them as a religious group, but I believe many of them communicate ineffectively, thus, making it easy for others to accuse them of being anti-Jewish. There is, however, a number of influential people that are merely anti-Jewish either as a hobby or as closet Nazis.
I have trouble with the word ‘zionist’.
I agree, a distinction needs to be made- partly my point.
Essentially, we need to focus on the ACTIONS of Israel and not Israel as a Jewish state. Whatever the religion- forget about it. What is it doing as a state.
Posted by Joshua at August 31, 2006 11:58 PM
Joshua,
You hit the proverbial nail right on the head regarding ineffective communication. There has been such an effective linking of zionism with Judaism that the average person can not make the distinction anymore. I know many moslems who talk about wiping Israel off the map, yet have Jewish friends and bear no ill to Jews in general. They can not see how avoiding the distinction makes them sound racist even if that is not their intent.
But I also agree with you that there are some people who dislike jews in general either because of bad personal experiences, reactions to the actions of the state the represents them (Israel) or just indoctrination. This is unfortunate because it provides further amunition for the zionists to cloud the facts.
If you look at North America, it will likely require some grass roots building to educate the people on the distinction between zionists and jews. Additionally, this is required even more urgently in the middle east.
Unfortunately I doubt this will happen in either place anytime soon. The US upper middle class is wholly indoctrinate and continues to indoctrinate the lower levels of society that gaze up at them as they represent the “Amerian dream”. The people in the middle east are in a reactionary phase to the continued bombardment of US culture and bombs with Israel as the lead dog. The seething hate of Israel with the understanding of Israel as the representative state of the jews (not to all but as portrayed by the zionists) will limit the ability of the masses to make effective distinction between jews and zionists.
Pessimistic but possible.
Posted by guesswho at September 1, 2006 01:08 AM
Yes- it always comes down to education which is way education is held back. It is very difficult to educate oneself when there is so much misinformation.
To all governments, education is dangerous and closely monitored. Good teachers and proffessors- those who inspire critical thought, skepticism, and curiosity in their students are very oftened singled out as subversives, activists (which oddly has negative conotations with the general poulation), agitators, or terrorists even.
New movements are needed. We do not need to send any more of our youth to die, nor do we need to rob the people of their social services to pay for bombs.
The US middle class can be changed. American’s have a particularly natural distrust of government (something Canadians could use more of), but it is overpowered in times of war as they compete to show who is the most patriotic.
As mighty as the government and the media are at shaping minds, people will grow weary of people dieing and will begin to wonder what it is all for.
The public shut down the Vietnam war machine and they will do the same in regards to Iraq.
More and more people are speaking out and learnign about what is really happening. Eventually, it will be common knowledge and the people will act out.
Never be pessimistic; optimism will get us much closer to where we want to be!
Posted by Joshua at September 1, 2006 02:57 AM
Here is a good sample of Israeli immorality.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/article1222829.ece
Posted by guesswho at September 1, 2006 09:53 AM
Tovy:
It is my super-fast Pathan reflexes.
When I was wee lad, I used a compressed air spray pistol to squirt water-paint on people from inside our car. It was real fun. I only did it to people I didn’t like….. people who walked funny….. people who were smoking…. women with fat behinds….
This is what is happening between Bino and me. I just like squirting people who walk funny.
Actually, this “comic relief” also comes about when I’ve got nothing to say.
Joshua:
The word “Semitic” means “Jewish” only in Amreeka.
For example, a small part of me, is “Semitic” (yes, I’m quite the mutt). So I can’t be anti-Semitic.
I do dislike Israel immensely. But if given the chance to hurt them, I won’t. Like I said once, Pakistan owes these bastards a favor or two. And we always remember those who did something for us….. even if they are devils. Besides, Pakistan isn’t part of the Middle East, so anything that happens there, shouldn’t concern us.
Oldfan:
Akbar Khan Bugti wasn’t a “nationalist”. He was a terrorist, pure and simple. If I had ever run into him, I wouldn’t have wasted two seconds before breaking his neck.
Amreeka was encouraging Bugti to make trouble for us. So we killed him. And there are more we can kill if they don’t behave.
People don’t realize. On a certain level, Pakistan and the US, are at war against each other.
News reports like American commandos going into Iran from Pakistan, are only to create divisions and doubts. Psy-ops.
I know how good American special forces are (very good). They aren’t stupid to go from Pakistan into Iran when Iranian cops have a fair record of catching smugglers coming from our side. If Americans want to go into Iran, they have many other better ways (from the sea, from the air, from Iraq, from Afghanistan). But then what are they supposed to do in there?
When these guys were after Pakistan in the 70s and 80s… when they were sure we had a nuke program going… they couldn’t do shit to us. They are good, but don’t believe the Hollywood nonsense.
Also remember, no matter how good an American soldier is, they get stupider the higher up in rank they go. The people heading the US military are more bureaucrats than generals and they are quite corrupt.
They can’t do anything to Iran. For a number of reasons, it is too late. Iran is well past the point when I felt myself secure when Pakistan was doing what it did.
Posted by Rampart at September 1, 2006 01:24 PM
Rampart:
I hope you are correct on Iran’s program, it would indeed be a powerful deterrent.
By the way did you go school with Machiavelli and did he also have a water pistol?
I’ll be sure to stay out of the way even though I have non of the attributes you described.
Illuminate on israel’s favours.
Posted by oldfan at September 1, 2006 02:10 PM
You might want to read a book called “Charlie Wilson’s War”. I think they’re even going to make a movie out of it.
Posted by Rampart at September 1, 2006 02:36 PM
And here is another book called “Bear Trap”…. how Pakistan defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan.
Read it to see how our Muslim “brothers” tried to fuck us over. We were fighting a Superpower, right? And they gave us garbage.
Isreal was probably the only one who didn’t give us garbage.
Posted by Rampart at September 1, 2006 02:40 PM
We’re all Machiavelli’s in this country. That is what it took to kill the Soviets. Nobody else had the backbone to do it.
From Charile Wilson’s War:
WASHINGTON: Most of the Afghan war against the Soviet Union was fought by Mujahideen and Pakistani soldiers using Israeli arms supplied after General Zia ul Haq entered into secret deals with the Israelis, a book published here has revealed.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/hafeezm/charlie-3.jpg
The revelation, coming at a time when the Pakistani Army Chief is campaigning for recognition of Israel, throws hitherto concealed light on secret Army-Israeli deals and their cooperation through the CIA. It reveals that the Army was not averse to secret defence cooperation, although publicly it did not acknowledge any contact with the Israelis.
Congressman Charles Wilson from Texas, a great pro-Pakistan activist who hated the Indians, was the central figure to get these CIA-funded weapons for Pakistan and is credited in the book as the man who broke up the Soviet Union with the help of a 48-year old Houston woman with whom General Zia ul Haq also had an affair.
The book, “Charlie Wilson’s War: The Extraordinary Story of the Largest Covert Operation in History” is written by journalist George Crile, who was an editor at Harper’s in the Seventies and who is now a producer at 60 Minutes II.
The 550-page book has been a best seller in US but so far it has not attracted any attention in Pakistan or South Asia. “I don’t know why it is so but I have not yet received any reaction from Pakistan,” Charlie Wilson, now a senior lobbyist for Pakistan in Washington, told South Asia Tribune on July 17, 2003.
Analysts think the present military regime would not like the book to become popular in Pakistan as it reveals a lot of their secrets, including Army’s deals with Israel.
Asked what he thought now that a major debate had been initiated by President Musharraf on whether Pakistan should recognize Israel, keeping in view his disclosures that Pakistan and Israel were defence partners years ago, Charlie Wislon refrained from offering any comment.
“I will not comment on the present situation,” he told me on July 17, saying: “It is for the governments of the two countries to decide what they want to do.”
Wilson, who admits in the book that his power in the House of Representatives had come primarily “as a result of his work with the Israeli lobby” told me in an interview basically there could never be a 100 per cent agreement between the subject and an author, but “I have not protested on anything that has been written in Crile’s book.” He was asked whether there was anything inaccurate in the book about the Pak-Israeli and other deals.
The book reveals that Wilson made the proposal to General Zia to deal with the Israelis during Zia’s first visit to US after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The proposal was made grand dinner hosted by the Houston lady, Joanne Herring, who was named later as Honorary Consul of Pakistan and became a critical player in the war.
“American liberals and human-rights advocates would never change their view of Zia as a Third World thug, but his American visit was something of a triumph, and Joanne’s dinner was part of the reason it succeeded,” the book says.
Joanne Herring later became Zia’s sweetheart and Charlie Wilson is quoted in the book saying: “ He (Zia) was so spell bound by Herring, and took her so seriously, that to the utter dismay of his entire foreign office, he made her Pakistan roving ambassador to the world and even awarded her his country’s highest honor, the title of Quaid-e-Azam.
Says Wilson: “Zia would leave cabinet meetings just to take Joanne’s calls. There was no affair with Zia but it’s impossible to deal with Joanne and not deal with her on a sexual basis. No matter who you are, you take those phone calls.” These words of Charlie say a lot more about Zia-Joanne relationship as Charlie himself had a long and deep one.
When asked by SA Tribune on July 17 whether Joanne was alive and was he still in contact with her, Charlie said he had not talked to her for the last 10 years but he knew she was alive and in Houston.
It was thus Joanne’s dinner in Houston which launched Zia in US and started the Pak-Israeli cooperation in arms. The book says of that event: “Zia had dangerous decisions to make in the coming months about the CIA’s involvement in his inflamed North-West Frontier, and all of them centered on whether he could trust the United States. Joanne’s startling toast was strangely therapeutic for the much-maligned leader, who remembered how quickly Jimmy Carter had turned on him. In Houston that night, Joanne Herring saw to it that a host of powerful Americans actually honored him. And that same night, Charlie Wilson provided yet another dimension to Zia’s growing partnership with the United States when he took the general into a side room for a private talk. The congressman had a novel proposition for – the Muslim dictator. Would Zia be willing to deal with the Israelis?” (P-131).
“This was not the sort of proposal just anyone could have made. But by now, the Pakistanis believed that Charlie Wilson had been decisive in getting them the disputed F-16 radar systems. As he saw it, Wilson had pulled off the impossible. Now the congressman, in his tuxedo, began to take Zia into the forbidden world where the Israelis were prepared to make deals no one need hear about.”
“He told Zia about his experience the previous year when the Israelis had shown him the vast stores of Soviet weapons they had captured from the PLO in Lebanon. The weapons were perfect for the mujahideen, he told Zia. If Wilson could convince the CIA to buy them, would Zia have any problems passing them on to the Afghans? Zia, ever the pragmatist, smiled on the proposal, adding, “Just don’t put any Stars of David on the boxes.”
“With that encouragement, Wilson pushed on. Just the previous month, he had learned that the Israelis were secretly upgrading the Chinese army’s Russian-designed T-55 tanks. In Islamabad, he had been startled to see that the Chinese were supplying Pakistan with T-55s. The congressman now proposed that Zia enter into a similar secret arrangement with the Israelis. “I was trying to rig it for Israel to do the upgrade without the Chinese operating as the middlemen,” Wilson explained in the book.
“It was no simple proposition. Three years earlier, a mere rumor that Israel had been involved in an attack on the Great Mosque in Mecca had so radicalized the Pakistani Muslim population that thousands had stormed the U.S. embassy in Pakistan and burned it to the ground. Zia was mindful of his people’s hatred for both Israel and the United States, and he might have been expected to nip this in the bud. Instead, he encouraged Wilson to continue.
“The congressman was acutely aware of the minefield he was walking through. Publicly, Pakistan and Israel would have to remain foes, he conceded. But as Zia well understood, Pakistan and Israel shared the same deadly foe in the Soviet Union. And the fact was that each could profit mightily by secretly cooperating with the other. If Zia would follow the lead of the Chinese, Wilson said, he could increase the striking power of his tanks, and there might be other areas of military and technological cooperation where both countries could mutually profit.
“Pakistan did not have diplomatic relations with Israel, and Wilson certainly had no authority to serve as a quasi secretary of state. In fact, with this kind of talk, the congressman was walking dangerously close to violating the Logan Act, which prohibits anyone other than the president or his representatives from conducting foreign policy. But as the two rejoined Joanne’s party, Zia left the congressman with an understanding that he was authorized to begin secret negotiations to open back channels between Islamabad and Jerusalem. Wilson would leave for Israel in March and travel on to Pakistan to brief Zia immediately afterward.”
Wilson then began a series of visits to Israel, taking along beautiful women, one of them a belle dancer, who actually performed in front of the Egyptian Defense Minister during one of the visits. She was also with Wilson on a trip to Pakistan and at many places she was described as Mrs. Wilson to satisfy the Muslim sensitivities.
The book describes one such visit in which a lady, Carol, was with Wilson. “When they landed in Israel…Carol was thrilled to be in the land of the Bible. Wilson would disappear with Zvi (an official) every morning, sending her off in the embassy’s chauffeur-driven Mercedes to see the holy sights. One afternoon, he came back “acting like a kid in a candy store,” she said. She didn’t completely understand what he was talking about, but she remembers that it had to do with T-55 tanks and secret deals with Pakistan.
“I’ve never breathed a word about this before,” she recalled. “And Charlie only gave me bits and pieces, but he was so excited because he thought he was going to be able to do something that no one else could. Charlie is a giver, and here he was saving the world.” What Wilson was doing during the day in Israel was scheming with Zvi’s associates at IMI, the weapons conglomerate that produces the country’s artillery, tank shells, and machine guns. It has the second biggest payroll in Israel and is inextricably entwined with the military and security apparatus of the Jewish state.
“Wilson’s scheming was conducted not merely out of Carol’s sight but outside that of the U.S. embassy, which ordinarily monitors congressional activities abroad. One of the reasons for shadowing visiting members of Congress is to discourage them from engaging in negotiations that could place U.S. interests at risk. Wilson, however, never shied away from negotiating, in effect, on behalf of his government, and on this occasion he and his Israeli friends had a wide range of business to transact…
“They turned next to the T-55 upgrade proposal and to what their congressional friend could offer President Zia, on behalf of Israel, when he met with him in Pakistan at the end of the week. The Israelis were hoping this deal would serve as the beginning of a range of under-the-table understandings with Pakistan that the congressman would continue to quietly negotiate for them.”
“But such was the stature of this old congressional patron of Israel that the IMI chief immediately set his weapons experts to work. By the time Wilson was ready to leave, they’d presented him with an impressive-looking design, complete with detailed specifications. It was a mule-portable, multi-rocketed device named, to the congressman’s delight, the Charlie Horse.”
Wilson cut the Pak-Israel deal even without CIA knowledge. The book reveals that the CIA man in Islamabad, Howard Hart, when asked years later, if he knew about Wilson’s efforts to bring the Israelis into the Afghan war, he dismissed this story out of hand, insisting that the Pakistanis would never have permitted it.
“I would have burst into hysterical laughter and locked myself in the bathroom before proposing such a thing,” he said. “It was bad enough for Zia to be dealing with the Americans, even secretly. But the Israelis were so beyond the pale that it would have been impossible. You have to understand that the Pakistanis were counting on maintaining the image of holding the high moral ground—of a religious brother helping a religious brother… . It’s beyond comprehension to have tried to bring the Israelis into it.”
“Yet right under Hart’s nose,” the book says, “Wilson had proposed just such an arrangement, and Zia and his high command had signed on to implement it. Seven years later, Hart still knew nothing about it.” (P-149).
The congressman began showed Zia the design for the Charlie Horse and describing the Israelis’ T-55 proposal at a dinner in Rawalpindi. After establishing what Zia wanted him to convey back to the Israelis, Wilson came right to point they both wanted the same thing—to expand the Afghan war— and Charlie had a plan to make it possible.
Charlie Wilson himself ended up overseeing much of this eccentric weapons program for Pakistan out of his own congressional office, and it turned out to be a wild and remarkable success story. “There were all these little scientists in the Pentagon—bureaucratic misfits who just needed to be freed,” Wilson recalled years later. “We gave them a little money and made them immune to procurement laws. They’re mad-scientist types. They love to tinker with things that blow up but hate to fill out forms. Hate to follow the chain of command. Hate to wait.”
“Within weeks, they began developing an astonishing collection of weapons. The Spanish mortar, for example, was designed to make it possible for the mujahideen to communicate directly with American navigation satellites to deliver repeated rounds within inches of their designated targets. Global-positioning technology is well known today, but back in 1985 it struck Wilson as the most astonishing capability. Just the thought of Afghan tribesmen who had never seen a flush toilet signaling an American satellite to fire precision rounds at a Red Army stronghold was almost too much to believe.
“The weapon’s name was purposefully misleading, chosen to conceal the fact that major portions of this “Spanish mortar” were being built by the Israelis. Milt Bearden, the station chief who would dominate the war’s later years, actually came to rely on the steady stream of crazy new weapons that kept coming on-line from this offbeat program. His strategy called for introducing a new weapon into the battle every three months or so, in order to bluff the Red Army into thinking their enemy was better armed and supported than it was.
“The Spanish mortar, for example, with its satellite-guided charge, was rarely deployed and may only have succeeded because the Pakistani ISI advisers were along to direct the fire. But the Soviets didn’t know that. When the weapon was first used it wiped out an entire Spetsnaz outpost with a volley of perfect strikes. And as soon as Bearden learned from the CIA’s intercepts that the commander of the 40th Army had helicoptered to the scene, he knew that from that day on, the Soviets would have to factor in the possibility that the mujahideen had acquired some deadly targeting capability.
“For that reason alone, the weapon was a success even if never fired again. Bearden became so intoxicated with this kind of psychological warfare that he later developed plans to have a group of mujahideen shoot dead Russian soldiers with crossbows. To him, the vision of men who might kill you with a bow and arrow one day or with a satellite-guided mortar the next would be unnerving to any army.” (P-393).
When the first Soviet helicopter was downed by the Mujahideen with Israeli weapons, Charlie Wilson was sent a special souvenir. “Charlie was the first to be taken to see this temple of Soviet doom. There Bearden (CIA Chief in Islamabad) had assembled a delegation of 1SI officers and mujahideen. With great solemnity, the station chief on behalf of the CIA, the ISI, and the Afghan freedom fighters, presented Charlie with the spent gripstock from the Stinger that Engineer Ghaffar had used to bring down the first Hind.” (P-475).
Posted by Rampart at September 1, 2006 03:04 PM
I’ve always been baffled by the accusations of the Israel lobby. I come from Berkeley, a famously anti-war part of the country, and have attended two anti Iraq war rallies in San Francisco. Like most anti-war rallies in this country, there was criticism of the Israeli government. But frankly, I think people who try to equate anti-Israel opinions with anti-Semitism are kidding themselves. “So why is Israel singled out for criticism when other countries are worse? Must be anti-Semitism” the Israel supporter says. Perhaps, just maybe, the reason why Israel gets so much criticism is that it’s the number one recipient of American aid? That, not only does Israel commit immoral acts, but it does so with American taxpayer dollars? You think???
Yes, there is anti-Jewish racism on the part of some critics of Israel, just like there is anti-Arab racism on the part of some supporters as Israel. Heck, I’ve heard the term “terrorist race” used to describe Palestinians. Many people call Arab countries such as Iraq “devoid of culture”, and hence don’t care if the US bombs the heck out of them (this, despite the fact that the Middle East was actually the “cradle of civilization”!). People say Israelis are superior to other Middle Easterners because they “made the desert bloom”, ignoring the fact that the Arab country of Lebanon, not Israel, is called the “Paris of the Middle East”. Furthermore, when Israel bombs the living daylight out of Lebanon, polluting a third of its beaches with oil spills, AIPAC defends its actions. The double standard is appalling. For the record:
-I oppose the policies of the state of Iran, but I’m not “racist” against Persians.
-I oppose the policies of the state of China, but I’m not “racist” against the Chinese.
-I oppose the policies of the state of Cuba, but I’m not “racist” against Cubans.
-I oppose the policies of the state of North Korea, but I’m not “racist” against North Koreans.
- I oppose the policies of the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, but I’m not “racist” against Palestinians.
In fact, I would go so far as to say I believe that the 5 governments/countries mentioned above are considerably worse than Israel. Yet, by saying, “I oppose the policies of the state of Israel”, I am liable to be called an “anti-Semite”. It would also practically doom my chances of ever getting elected to the US Senate. Furthermore, if I DON’T criticize these 5 governments, I’m also dooming my chances of being elected to the Senate.
As for this whole topic on “fascism”: There is no “right” definition of a fascist. Eric’s definition of a fascist, in which he attempts to include many right wing Europeans and Americans, is just as ludicrous as the definition that includes Islamic fundamentalists (AKA “Islamo-fascists”). But then again all definitions are really just sorry attempts to label people according to one’s own personal biases.
I propose a new definition of a fascist: any bad political figure since WWI who is NOT a communist. That way Iran can fit nice and snuggly in the definition. It’s ludicrous, but for all practical purposes, it works!
Posted by muff at September 1, 2006 03:44 PM
Well said muff:
You made the point more simple and more clear than I could have done while at the same time higlighting the gross hypocrisy of American politics.
Rampart & Oldfan:
The word semite has three different definitions in the English language regardless of where the word originated from.
I do not have an Amreeka dictionary nor do I speak Amreeka; but, my Oxford English dictionary does indicate it means a Jew as its second definition.
I am not sure how my use of the word ‘anti-semite’ has struck a chord with you two. I did explain my meaning in case my use of the word was confusing.
Posted by Joshua at September 1, 2006 04:56 PM
Excellent post Muff. I only disagree with you ranking China, Cuba, Iran and North Korea worse than Israel. The big difference between these four and Israel - the reason I often come to their defence - is that their governments do not harm other countries or people around them. Israel most certainly does. Likewise for America and Britain, hence my calling them the Real Axis of Evil.
One could make a case about China regarding Tibet. Still it’s not a clear cut case as Tibet was extraordinarily backward and run by a cult of monks with the populace medieval peasants. The country is likely better today for the change(though I am not certain of that). Even if it was wrong, it was China’s lone transgression in thirty years. Other major powers have not been so docile.
About China’s lack of democracy, that really is an issue for the Chinese to resolve themselves. Crushing the democratic movement in 1989 does not seem like such a bad decision now given the Russian experience. Russia went head long into democracy and it is now totally discredited with the Russian people. The Chinese, in their more patient way, refused such an abrupt change and by doing so have kept the door open to becoming a true democracy in the future.
If Cuba is a failed state one can blame the American trade embargo for that. Castro is certainly not perfect, however Cuba under him has been a better country than it would have been under US domination. One need only look at how Guatemala, Dominican Republic or Chile have been compared to Cuba. If the Cuban Revolution has failed at least they tried to make changes for a better society. Far better than the American recipe for Latin America of maintaining the status quo of grinding poverty for nearly all the people.
People talk about Iran as if the Persian Empire was back and Xerxes himself was marching his million man army through the pass of Thermopyle! One need only look at the history of the country since the Islamic Revolution to understand that Iran has been mostly victimized over the years. Their only brush with true terrorism(unprovoked attack on civilians) was the downing of the Iranian airbus in 1988. Their support of so called terrorism is the Shias giving aid to the underprivileged - Hizbollah and Hamas - so they have a slim fighting chance to defend their people. That is admirable in my eyes.
North Korea is it’s own worst enemy. Yet it is no threat to anyone else. They’re still at war with South Korea but not a drop of blood has been spilt in 50 years. North Korea is the classic case of the mouse that roared. The issue isn’t about the beloved leader, it’s about western fearmongering politicians and their media lackeys.
There really is no comparison between those four and Israel’s unspoken policy of making the Gaza Strip, West Bank and south Lebanon unfit for even a dog to live in.
Posted by Paul Whiteside at September 1, 2006 05:03 PM
Great clarifying posts folks.
Posted by ghawley at September 1, 2006 05:49 PM
Thanks Rampart, you certainly raised my interest, I now want to look into this further.
Zia, a stuanch Muslim having an affair, hmm, seems very intriguing.
ghawley:
Whats this, have you become a one line wonder now!
Posted by oldfan at September 1, 2006 06:29 PM
Paul - you made good points about Israel being worse than the countries I mentioned. When I said that Israel is better, what I was really thinking about was that I would much rather live under the Israeli government than the governments of the other places (unless I were a Jew, ironically, in which case Israel would be one of the only countries where I’d have to do military service…eck…).
However, there is another reason why I think Israel is “better” than other countries. I confess that many members (and previous members) of the Israeli government, in my opinion, have been just plain rotten. Frankly, I think Israel would be more dangerous than North Korea, Iran, etc. if these people had more power/influence over their country as dictators. But I think the reason why the PEOPLE support their government’s actions has to do with the fact that they’re terrified. The blame for this lies with other entities, including some of the ones I mentioned —- Hamas, for instance, or Iranian support for Hezbollah. I doubt that Israeli people would have any desire to let their government commit the horrors they are doing now if other Middle Eastern Governments would just “shape up” and stop committing the irresponsible and immoral actions (and just plain stupid actions) that has caused so much Israeli suffering.
Does Israel overreact? Yes…I think that’s their number 1 problem. And many of their actions are supported by the most outrageous of arguments by pro-Israel bigots in the government and here in America. But you simply cannot discount the role of the Iranian government, Palestinian Authority, etc. play in the tragedy that is known as the Middle East crisis.
As for the other countries:
There are some “Good” things about Cuba, e.g. high literacy, low infant mortality, etc., and yes, many of Cuba’s problems stem from US sanctions. However, keep in mind that Cuba has one of the highest number of political prisoners per capita in the entire world. This is inexcusable. In fact, the reason why the sanctions have lasted as long as they did is because of the influence of Cuban Americans living in the US, not right wingers in the US who wish to cause as much commie suffering as possible. There are also people who claim that improvements to Cuba’s social services really started to come under the last few years of Batista, though I don’t know if that’s true or not. However, I do agree with you that Cuba would be no better off with a Us-installed puppet regime. In any case, I currently have no desire to be involved in a debate on the merits of Castro’s Cuba on this forum.
As for China improving Tibet, I have a Tibetan maid who gave me a “free Tibet” shirt as a gift when she noticed that I had a “free Tibet” sticker on my door.
What scares me about North Korea is the lack of sanity in the leader and the fact that he has so much support from the people (unlike Iran, which has a fair amount of internal dissent).
Iran’s biggest mistake is its support for terrorist organizations like Hezbollah. I described the problem above —- such actions only terrorize the Israeli people into supporting the criminals in their government.
At any rate, I don’t think any of the mentioned countries are threats to the United States. In fact, we talk all the time about countries acquiring nuclear weapons, and I can never seem to find myself with the same amount of fear that other people have. With so many countries with nukes in the world, it’s virtually impossible for one country to nuke another country without massive nuclear retaliation. In fact, it’s too dangerous to attack a country with nuclear weapons PERIOD, which is why I was so skeptical about the WMD claims in Iraq (wouldn’t attacking Saddam make him more likely to use any weapons he may have had???).
What bothers me is the possibility of a TERRORIST getting a hold of such weapons, since it is virtually impossible to retaliate against a terrorist group by dropping one big H-bomb. That’s why those decaying nukes lying around in Russia from the former USSR bother me more than the crooks in North Korea or Iran. Or how about Pakistan’s nukes? God knows what’s going to happen once Musharfaf dies.
ok…I think I’m going to put this post out of its misery now…
cheers
Posted by muff at September 1, 2006 07:33 PM
Some good stuff there and some intersting lists.
I would not be so quick to discount North Korea as a real threat. North Korea is the most likely nation to destroy themselves in the process of avenging the US. Korea has a long history of military vengence and it is a hallmark of Korean political culture. Kim Jong Il and his family feel compelled to avenge the US for sacking their capital in the 19th century long before the Korean war. They have an ancient and proud military history mixed in with mythology and folklore which makes Kim Jong Il and company a very dangerous group. They are the fifth largest army in the world and there underneath their country is a vast underground military compound.
Do not think, either, that Kim Jong Il has forgotten that MacCarthur (Spelling?) repeatedly requested the use of multiple nuclear weapons to end the Korean War; his end game was to simply obliterate the entire Korean homeland North & South in order to save American soldiers and come home with a victory.
Cuba- best nation in the world with the greatest leader of the 20th century for what they are up against. Fidel Castro’s accomplishments are unparrelled. Prisoners, yes, but when you are constantly being undermined by the worlds superpower who also encourages Cuba’s former upperclass to rebel- what are you to do?
Castro did give everyone a chance to leave when he took power. Cuba has wicked education and exports doctors to nations in need as well as other humanitarian causes.
The United States continuous abuse of this awesome country is disgusting. They would be fine if it were not for US sanctions. Oh, there are many Castro supporters from Cuba in the US; the problem is they do not fit in with their communities and get little voice in America.
China improving Tibet: The Chinese govt loves to remind the world how much it has developed Tibet and improved literacy rates and so on. Sure, many Han who know how to read have moved to China; many Tibetans have learned to read MANDARIN so they can read more easily acculturated and assimilated. Development had come at the price of Tibetan culture; going… going… gone. What is their culture worth to us? The world let them down decades ago.
The US is doing the same thing with Iran as it did with Iraq. Rembere when the media everywhere was leaking reports of the US planning to attack Iraq long before they admitted it; these were followed by Rumsfeld on the news profoundly exclaiming “The United States will launch an attack on the Iraqi people”. Then the media, not so long ago, started running periodic stories of the US planning to attack Iran followed by Rummy, again, on TV saying “They US is not planning to attack Iran.” He always throws in some comment about ‘the crazy rumors the media creates and we shouldnt listen to the media.”
One thing is for sure, Rummy & Bush want us to listen to the media, and if they say they WILL NOT attack a nation- do not go there!
Of course Mr. Margolis predicted both the Iraqi, Afghanistan, and the looming Iranian invasion in his book long before any of this unfolded when many Western academia and the media thought it far-fetched.
MOst dangerous nation in the world responsible for the most human suffering in the history of mankind either directly or indirectly and guilty of genocide, the use of WMD, and uncountable crimes against humanity: THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
Posted by Joshua at September 1, 2006 10:24 PM
Insightful comments on Israel Muff. Given how so many citizens of the West are so easily swayed by fearmongering(when there is no threat to our way of life) it’s understandable for Israelis to be motivated by fear as the threat they face is more tangible.
Still my complaint with Israel is that they have brought all of it upon themselves. Their behavior over the past 25 years has made constant conflict inevitable. They had a hand in creating Hamas as a rival to the secular(thus more appealing to the West) PLO. They created Hizbollah through their occupation of Lebanon from 1982-99. If Hizbollah and Hamas must be branded terrorist organisations then I hate to think what we’d have to call the IDF!
To be generous I’d say Israeli society is split and does not know what it wants. Many just want to live in peace while others want to see a Greater Israel created. Even the peaceniks are not prepared to give the Palestinians the 20% of Palestine they’d settle for(Gaza, West Bank & East Jerusalem). So really all Israelis want peace on their terms and ignore that even their best offer will never bring peace because it’s ridiculously minimal. So their offers of peace are actually phoney. I’m just not sure if they are being deliberately deceitful or just plain ignorant. Likely an even split throughout the Jewish world.
Yet that generous view is eclipsed by the simple fact that the Zionists are the decision makers. They still hold to Golda Meir’s view that there are no Palestinians and share Ben-Gurion’s dream of a Greater Israel from the Litani to the Jordan to the Sinai.
If one keeps that in mind then leaving minefields in Lebanon, dropping cluster bombs and leveling most buildings south of the Litani makes sense. Likewise, the humiliating check points in the West Bank, the security wall cutting off Palestinian farmers from their fields, blowing up Gaza’s only power station in the middle of summer and the daily bombardment of Gaza leading up to Hamas ending its ceasefire also makes sense. Make all the land you want for a greater Israel unliveable for non Jews. Throw in that Arab-Israeli towns in Galilee are surrounded by military targets yet have no bomb shelters nor air raid sirens. Like Israel wants to see these Arabs killed to get them off Jewish land! Scary stuff to realise the world is confronted with a smart version of the Bosnian-Serbs! Smart because Israeli society is divided and American support is conditional, thus the Zionists must give off the air of respectability to mask their true filthy odour. My fear is that the West will swing further to the extreme and some day soon the respectable charade will no longer be necessary.
Posted by Paul Whiteside at September 1, 2006 11:56 PM
No matter what this big power or that big power says or do, in the end only the truth and justices will prevail. There is nothing written in any history books that falsehood, lies, mass-murdering, land-grabbing, looting others’ resources in the name of democracy have prevailed, British did t