© 2008 Eric Margolis

Archives > August 14, 2006

THE LEBANON CURSE STRIKES AGAIN



As a shaky cease-fire goes into effect in Lebanon, Israel’s generals and politicians are furiously blaming one another for what many Israelis are calling a major political and military defeat.

After 31 days of fighting, Israel has nothing to show but world-wide condemnation (the US excepted), scores of dead soldiers and civilians, burned forests, displaced civilians and the expenditure of billions of dollars.

A decade ago, Israelis used to speak of their `Lebanese curse.’ They were referring to their disastrous interventions there that brought them nothing but heavy casualties, billions in wasted dollars, ruined political and military careers and the historic shame of the massacres at Shatilla and Sabra, and the destruction of Beirut.

The old curse struck again. The fierce resistance of some 3,000 Hezbullah fighters to the world’s fourth most powerful military machine electrified the Muslim world, and horrified Israelis, who had foolishly dismissed Hezbullah as `a bunch of terrorists.’

According to Israeli media, Israel had apparently been planning the Lebanon invasion for the past three years and conducted a mock invasion of Lebanon only a month ago. President George Bush had strongly urged Israel’s PM Ehud Olmert to attack Hezbullah as the first stage in a US-British-Israeli campaign against Syria ad Iran.

The new invasion of southern Lebanon was expected to be swift and painless. A week’s bombing would erase Hezbullah, promised Israel’s chief of staff, Dan Halutz, a sort of Israeli version of `bomb’em back to the Stone Age’ Gen. Curtiss LeMay. Instead, Hezbullah fought Israel’s armored juggernaut to a standstill. Israel’s huge bombing campaign killed over 1,000 civilians but very few Hezbullah fighters.

Why have Hezbullah’s mujahidin proven such fierce and skilled fighters? Many are well-educated university graduates, often around 30-40 years old. They are dedicated to driving Israeli troops from Lebanon and aiding the Palestinian cause.

Hezbullah’s Shia traditions of self-sacrifice, fearlessness, and heroism in battle play a key role. So, too, the concept of noble martyrdom in righteous battle.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) has suffered grave casualties in southern Lebanon, notably near the strategic hilltop town of Marjayoun, losing score of casualties. Hezbullah claims to have knocked out nearly 20 of Israel’s superbly armored Merkava tanks. Nearby Bint Jebil, which changed hands numerous times, is being hailed as `Hezbullagrad,’ after the legendary World War II battle at Stalingrad.

Many Hezbullah officers are highly skilled veterans of the 80’s war. By contrast, IDF ground forces seems to have forgotten almost all the bitter lessons previously learned in Lebanon. The 1980’s occupation cost Israel nearly 800 soldiers and billions of dollars.

Hezbullah fighters stand out among Arab military forces for proficiency in small unit combat tactics. Their squads are experts in moving and firing, setting up interlocking fields of fire, laying ambushes and anti-tank mines, and pre-registered mortar fire plans.

Hezbullah’s men wear modern body armor and helmets. They have supplies of munitions cached all over the area, and networks of bunkers, caves and trenches that partially neutralize Israel’s command of the air. Subjected to intensive, round-the-clock bombing by Israel’s Air Force and shelling by heavy 155mm guns and rockets, Hezbullah’s fighters have never wavered or retreated, and continued to resist with ferocity. No professional western troops could do better.

One of Hezbullah’s few advantages is intimate knowledge of southern Lebanon’s fractured terrain of steep hills, dry stream beds, twisting roads, and deep ravines. Israel’s vast number of tanks and armored vehicles cannot be employed to full force in such terrain as it was in the deserts of Sinai and barren Golan Heights.

Equally important, Hezbullah’s infantry has acquired sizeable amounts of anti-tank systems. These include the venerable but still destructive US TOW sourced from refurbished Iranian stocks, the Soviet Sagger, and the modern European Milan and some Russian systems, likely obtained on the arms market or from Syria. These weapons have caused the largest number of Israeli casualties and armor losses and are a fearsome threat for IDF infantry packed into vulnerable armored personnel carriers.

Had Hezbullah any effective shoulder-fired anti-aircraft weapons, such as the US Stinger that neutralized Soviet aviation in Afghanistan, Israel’s enormous advantage from devastating close air support would be partially neutralized.

Far from being what Israel and the US call a `terrorist group,’ Hezbullah is an integrated political, social, cultural and military movement that represents the Lebanon’s Shia, who make up 40% of that nation’s people. Recent polls show 87% of Lebanese now support Hezbullah.

Even al-Qaida, which used to brand Shia’s traitors to the Arab cause, now hails Hezbullah as a vanguard of Arab liberation.

In spite of the cease-fire, which has already been twice violated, 40,000 Israeli troops remain poised to enter Lebanon, most of whose population has been driven out by Israeli bombing and shelling and their villages razed by Israeli bulldozers. The fate of the nearly one million refugees created by Israel’s indiscriminate bombing campaign remains unresolved. Much of Lebanon lies in ruins.

The Bush Administration’s encouragement of Israel’s foolish invasion and laying waste of Lebanon marks its third military disaster after Afghanistan and Iraq. This from the man who styles himself `the war president.’

Hezbullah has emerged from the Lebanon War as the new champion of the Muslim World. Its fighters held out longer against Israel’s might than did the Arab armies in the 1956, 1967 and 1973 wars, and emerged undefeated. Israel’s carefully-cultivated myth of military invincibility was shattered by Hezbullah. As a result, Israel will now redouble its attempts to assassinate its leader, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah.

The repulse of Israeli forces by a few thousand Hezbullah fighters ought to give pause for thought to the Pentagon and bloodthirsty neocons who have been clamoring for war with Iran. Hezbullah was trained and armed by Iran’s Revolutionary Guards. American forces might face the same tough fighting in any invasion of Iran that Israel just met in Lebanon.

As this column predicted when the fighting in Lebanon began, after all the barrages of self-righteous propaganda, massive bombing and heaps of dead civilians, in the end the two sides would negotiate through third parties -which they could have easily done after the minor border skirmish that triggered this totally unnecessary war. But PM Olmert, enraged by Nasrallah’s taunting that he was `small’ compared to Ariel Sharon, went to war, egged on by George Bush, who rushed Israel fuel and munitions.

The cease-fire and impending dispatch of Lebanese and UN forces to southern Lebanon will hopefully end this stupid, pointless war and afford Israel a face-saving way of withdrawing its head from a hornet’s nest. However, the war could easily re-ignite and Israel could end up bogged down in guerilla war in southern Lebanon, as it previously was for 18 years.

Israel’s politicians will now face the wrath of voters who are rightly outraged over the fiasco in Lebanon and Hezbullah’s crowing victory. Heads will surely roll.

Americans, by contrast, will not draw the same conclusions about their inept political leadership that better informed Israelis certainly will. George Bush, the war’s leading flag-waver, has received no rebuke from the US media or voters for his latest military debacle. Nor will the clapping seals in Congress and the Senate.

Lebanese and Israelis are paying the heavy price for Mr. Bush’s `reborn Middle East.’

30

copyright Eric S. Margolis 2006


Posted by Eric Margolis on August 14, 2006 11:30 AM
Comments:

This situation is more about IDF subscribing to GWB’s minimal planning - minimal resources theory to war, and not because Hezbollah is some sort of magical shiite militia (good but not magical). The IDF can still win IF they want to…a big if… and what will they win?

Posted by JonnyBoy0416 at August 14, 2006 02:14 PM

jonnyboy0416 - I think the Israeli got a scare. My sense is it was more from underestimating the resolve of Hezb rather than inadequate planning.
Israel certainly had the US and CDN media lined up.

Your question about what they would win is right on. For whatever it is they desired, the trade-off was seen to be too great.

My hope is that as a result of their bloody nose, they will realize that the seizure of Palestinian lands and ongoing oppression of the Palestinian people is generating increasingly effective opposition with each passing day. And, at some point, the zionist settlers will have to lose their sway over domestic policy. The risks are growing and the prize isn’t worth it, ethically, morally, economically, or militarily. Certainly were the US to substantially reduce its humungous subsidy of Israel, a viable 2-state solution (with compensation for refugees) would be dramatically sped up.

Posted by ghawley at August 14, 2006 02:44 PM

Jumping on the bandwagon

Dear Nasrallah,

I am writing you this letter because I owe you sir an apology: I didn’t support you or your blessed organization when this conflict started. Hell, even before that. And for that, sir, I was wrong, and I apologize. From this day forward I am the biggest Hezbollah supporter, ever. I will wear those T-shirts, I will wave your yellow flag, and go to every pro Hezbollah rally and chant with the chanters. I am converted now. You made a believer out of me, with your victory over Israel, which totally destroyed the legend of the Israeli army, just like it was destroyed in 2000 and 73. what a fuckin resilient legend, huh? It’s like the Freddy Kreuger of legends. Everytime you kill it, it just keeps coming back. This is why I urge you to destroy it once and for all this time around, and not accept the cease-fire agreement.

You see sir, we in Egypt accepted a cease-fire agreement once in 73, and that is why Israel still exists, as many nasserites and syrians have told me repeatedly. Had we not accepted the cease-fire and continued fighting, we would’ve eventually liberated all of palestine. But alas, that pussy Sadat and his concern over war cost, the mounting casualty rates and that second army in the Km 101 have cost us that victory. Never again. We should learn from our mistakes sir. Every Newspaper I read in the middle-east and every arab satalite news channel, especially yours, keeps informing me of how much Israelis you are killing, how few men you are losing and how you are accomplishing what no arab country has accomplished and are winning this war against Israel, and you know how the arab media never lies and always tells the truth. What I don’t understand is this: if you are winning, why stop now? I say continue fighting, until, god willing, you destroy the accursed zionist entity and liberate Jersualem. I am sure that your army of 5000 fighters and your 10000 rockets can do it. I have faith in you, especially after all the victories you have achieved, like having the israeli army inside of Lebanon again, right where you want them of course, and having your neighborhood in Beirut destroyed, which saved you all the demolition costs it would’ve cost you for the Hezbollah Paradise Towers project, which will provide every shia family with a luxury High-rise apartment in a premium Bierut location. It was a fantastic business decision I must say. Die with envy Christians and sunnis. You didn’t think of that, did ya?

Oh, those christians and sunnis and druze make me sick, with their “support” on one side and their pushing for cease-fire the other side. If they really supported You and Your party, they wouldn’t even called for a cease-fire. Everyone knows you don’t call for a cease-fire when you are so clearly winning. Those people are defeatists and possibly zionists agents, especially that Jumbalatt. He even looks like a jew, with his nose and his hair and his dislike of Syria. So what if they assassinated his father, huh? Is that enough reason for him to be such a freakin traitor? Hell NO. He should be the first on the butcher’s block that one.

However, it is quite impossible that everybody who is calling for a cease-fire is a zionist traitor. I think the problem is that those people don’t have any dignity, or at least have the wrong definition of dignity. Don’t be hard on them, god knows I was one of them before I saw the light. I always thought the definition of dignity was that you have a good job, a decent house, could afford your kids a decent living in a peacefull country with a future. What american zionist propaganda. Dignity is getting attacked due to the actions of your leader, to the point of losing everything, and still refusing to hold that leader
accountable. Dignity is having your entire neighborhood bombed, your children killed, and your only reaction is to dance in the streets like zulu warriors in support of Hezbollah. That’s what dignity, pride and honor are all about. I get that now.

But we can help them get it too. Think about it: those people- cursed christian, sunnis and druze-who call for the cease-fire don’t have dignity for a very good reason: Their houses are still standing. Hell, more than 80% of the country is still not destroyed. That’s a lot of people without dignity oh great ayatollah Nasrallah, and we need to teach it to them. So please, for their own sake, continue bombing Israel from their villages and eventually those zionists will fall into your trap and bomb them as well, giving them instant dignity. Don’t worry about any backlash on the short or long run. I mean, look at Nasser: He too entered wars against enemies far stronger than him, and caused the death of thousands of egyptians and the economic destruction of the country for decades to come. Do the people hate him? Noooooo. They love him, because he gave them dignity. Hell, your biggest supporters in Egypt keep comparing you to him, and they love you for reminding them of the dignity they feel whenever arabs die. Thank you for reminding them how it feels like to have dignity. Thank you.

And please, don’t listen to those people who talk to you about the mounting lebanese civilian casualties due to Israeli bombing. Those people are idiots. First of all, you can’t have an omlet without breaking some eggs. What? They thought liberating Palestine was going to be achieved with no people dying? Helloo, we have to kill 8 million jews to do it, and they are not big fans of getting killed. Deaths are inevitable. But, unlike them, our dead go to Heaven. Instant martyrs. Even the israeli muslims we kill are martyrs, as you said yourself. Those people are the same people who complained about the half a million iraqi children that died from malnutrition and lack of medicine from the sanctions imposed on the glorious regime of Saddam. They don’t understand that Saddam gave them Dignity for breakfast, Honor for lunch and Pride for dinner as one Iraqi friend once told me, or that those half a million children are now playing in Heaven, after dying with the dignity that Saddam’s rule gave them. But don’t get mad at the ignorant my dear sir; they just don’t know any better, since they don’t understand dignity. Just like those arab leaders of ours, curse their names and faces.

Those so called leaders are all zionist american agents and have absolutely no dignity what so ever, as my nasserite friends have repeatedly told me. And you know what? They are right. A true arab leader, a leader with dignity, should immediatly go to war against Israel the moment they attempt to respond to your glorious and justified acts of resistance. Hell, they should throw all caution to the wind, not care about how unprepared they might be, or how such a war would effect the country economically, or even how many people would die because of it, and like Nike, just do it! A true leader shouldn’t care about such trivial things like the welfare of his country or the safety of his people, as long as he engages in wars of dignity and inflicts some damages against the evil nazi zionists. That’s what your glorious role model showed them, and the egyptian people have looked around, saw the peace and quiet we have been living in for the past 27 years and screamed: I DON’T WANT THIS HONORLESS PEACE! GIVE ME WAR! GIVE ME DEATH! GIVE ME DIGNITY. You are teaching all arabs what it means to be a leader with dignity, not one of those pansies that govern Egypt, Jordan or the arabIAN Gulf, with all of their sissy talk of peace, development and economic stability. What a bunch of pussies! Seriously! You will show them when you liberate Palestine. Oh yes you will.

And finally, don’t listen to all of those poeple who talk about the difference in your army and the israeli army, and how they have superior weapons, like aircrafts and nuclear warheads. Those fools don’t understand that you have the most powerful weapon of all: You have GOD ON YOUR SIDE. You even hinted at your special relationship when you omnipotently spoke about how the Israelis were going to attack in 2 months anyway, so it was a good thing to provoke an attack from them now while they were unprepared. Many people wonderd how you knew that, but only I figured it out: God told you. What? Do those people think he placed you as the leader of his party for no reason? HA! Foolish know-nothings! You have a close personal relationship with him. He talks to you and tells you stuff. This is why you don’t do any filed fighting anymore, and reserve your energy for those TV appearances. You are in no hurry to die in order to meet him; he comes to you every night. And people wonder why the rest of the planet is in such bad shape: GOD IS BUSY, DAMN IT! He is occupied with making sure his party survives. And despite all that, you have those people who keep asking him for things like a better world, Justice and peace on earth, while he is busy helping you fight his chosen people. Don’t people understand what Priorities mean anymore? People today man, I tell you, no manners!

And finally, If those negative defeatists naysayers continue their misguided rhetoric, refusing to believe that God is really on your side and will hand you your victory on a plate of silver, I would like to remind them what your name means. You are called Nasrallah, which means God’s Victory. Come on people. Do I have to spell it out for ya? God’s victory, waging the war using God’s party? You are so gonna win this. It’s not even a discussion!

So please, dear great supreme leader Hassan Nasrallah, for all of those reasons, don’t accept the cease-fire. Continue fighting, and the gates of Jerusalem are yours to pass through. I will be here, standing right behind you, well, in front of the Television really, but I will be cheering really really hard for every Israeli death you inflict for every 10 death they inflict upon your people. And I will also pray very hard for God to help you out more and hasten the destruction of Israel. I hear they are considering bringing back Bibi as Prime Minister, so it really shouldn’t be long now, since he will do most of the damage for you anyway, probably all in God’s plan of giving you that victory. He works in mysterious ways, doesn’t he? Oh yes. Yes, he sure does. And his victory and total annihilation of the jewish people is nigh and will be on your hands, god willing. Just keep fighting Nasrallah, and keep firing those rockets. I am sure the Israelis will just roll over and play dead any minute now!

Your new supporter and faithful scribe,

Sandmonkey

http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/08/13/jumping-on-the-bandwagon

Posted by Bino at August 14, 2006 03:08 PM

I don’t see how this can possibly be considered a victory for Hezbollah. It looks to me, reading the resolution, as though Israel came out quite well:

3. Emphasises the importance of the extension of the control of the government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory in accordance with the provisions of resolution 1559 (2004) and resolution 1680 (2006), and of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, for it to exercise its full sovereignty, so that there will be no weapons without the consent of the government of Lebanon and no authority other than that of the government of Lebanon;

8. Calls for Israel and Lebanon to support a permanent ceasefire and a long-term solution based on the following principles and elements:
·Full respect for the Blue Line by both parties;
·security arrangements to prevent the resumption of hostilities, including the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an area free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL as authorised in paragraph 11, deployed in this area;
·Full implementation of the relevant provisions of the Taif Accords, and of resolutions 1559 (2004) and 1680 (2006), that require the disarmament of all armed groups in Lebanon, so that, pursuant to the Lebanese cabinet decision of July 27, 2006, there will be no weapons or authority in Lebanon other than that of the Lebanese state;
·No foreign forces in Lebanon without the consent of its government;
·No sales or supply of arms and related materiel to Lebanon except as authorized by its government;
Provision to the United Nations of all remaining maps of land mines in Lebanon in Israel’s possession;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4785963.stm

Posted by Bino at August 14, 2006 03:19 PM

FOX news’ cup of piss doth runneth over….

Posted by Rampart at August 14, 2006 03:54 PM

UN Security Council Resolution 1701 was drafted by France and the US in close consultation with the Israeli government. So it is not balanced and hence reflects a censored perception of the conflict. See:

1. UN Resolution fails to acknowledge that Israel has launched a War against Lebanon:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060812&articleId=2947

2. Sham UN Resolution Guarantees No End To Israel’s War of Illegal Aggression:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LEN20060813&articleId=2952

Well said Rampart. Piss is the local zionist flag waver. To his credit he reads this material and hopefuly one day rather than reacting to what doesn’t fit into his programming he will start thinking. He still hasn’t answered 2 questions: re: Israeli Occupation and his primary allegiance.

Now a 3rd - What about Palestinian prisoners - in jail without charge for an indefinite (lifelong in many cases) period, some 8-9000 of whom are women and children? How about a word on how they are treated by their sadistic Jewish masters? What a wonderful country - not worth a shit.

And a 4th - How to justify the destruction of Lebanon? Is collective punishment OK if Israel does it?

A 5th, 6th and 7th - The kidnapping of Hamas democratically-elected officials during the current IDF invasion of Gaza (“arrests” according to NA media). What would happen if Hamas kidnapped (er, “arrested”) Israeli elected officials? What is happening to the Hamas officials? Why is the supposed free media not asking these questions?

Posted by ghawley at August 14, 2006 04:24 PM

If we’ve learned anything from the 20th century warfare is that you can declare whatever you want.

Stand tall, look proud and claim “Victory!” even as you stand in the rubble. Saddam did it after 1991. Argentina did it after the Falklands. Even über-crook Ken Lay did it after being convicted.

Your supporters will support you and your opponents will oppose you. Whether it’s true or false makes no difference to “supporters” and “opponents”.

On the side…

Who can forget Ken Lay’s wife Linda on her tearful Today Show interview?
“We’re absolutely broke! It’s all gone! We have nothing left!”
“But your husband took home $300 million last year!”
“It’s all gone. We’ve got nothing. We’re down to our last $20 million.”

Be it business or war, people in power are liars on an unimaginable scale. But to get away with it, they need supporters.

Posted by D. Canuck at August 14, 2006 04:32 PM

Arab Nationalism.

It seems Israel forgot more than just the lessons of the “Lebanon Curse”. It and the Bush Administration both forgot about Gamel Abdul Nasser and the dream of Arab Nationalism. Pan Arabia was more than a movement in the 50s-60s, it was about national identity and the belief that despite secterian and geo-cultural differences Arabs would lead their nations. The days of pro-western stooges (Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Eygpt) are seriously in doubt. Any belief that Syria’s Bashar was too young or Iran’s Ahmedenaja too radical has been put to rest by their restraint from attacking Israel directly.

We shall all see Bush et la dealing with alleged terrorist Hizbollah on an equal footing, because the next time, Israel will lose more than a few young men and its face. It will lose any political capital it has left.

As for Harper, we Muslims will not forget about this. Don’t believe me, watch what the Respect Party did in UK, and how Ned Lamont destroyed Liberman

Posted by MoonDragon at August 14, 2006 05:08 PM

This is just a lull in the fighting.
The battle theatre has shifted, albeit that the guns are silent for now.

While the victory on the ground is Hizboullah’s the UN resolution terms did not address the reality on the ground in all its facets.

Too many vague concepts and ambigous formats are a sure recipe for further fighting.

As Condi remarked in the early days “Status Quo Ante” her new baby decided not to be born and wants to remain in the womb.

Arab Nationalism is that preverbial nail in the coffin for all, in the Middle East.

Nothing good will come out of it, talk about higher ideals like TRUTH, JUSTICE etc for all otherwise Arabs are no better than the zionists that they are struggling against.

Posted by oldfan at August 14, 2006 05:47 PM

globalresearch.ca - “committed to curbing the tide of ‘globalisation’ and ‘disarming’ the New World Order”.

My favorite headline on their homepage is “Is the Bush Administration Planning a Nuclear Holocaust?”

Awesome sources you’re throwing my way.

As far as the “Sham UN Resolution” they rail against, it was, by the way, unanimously accepted by the UNSC. So, while France and America did indeed craft it, giant American lapdogs like Russia and China agreed it was the right thing to approve. Maybe becasuse they are in bed with the Jooooos like BusHitler and the Harpocrites!

The Lebanese cabinet voted unanimously to accept it.

Israel voted to accept it.

Why are you having such a hard time accepting it?

Bottom line – Hezbollah is a militia, and the WORLD agreed it must be disarmed.

Awesome.

Tell me again how Israel lost the war?

Posted by Bino at August 14, 2006 06:34 PM

When the brother(israel) was busy beating a child(Lebanon) in the street what was the sister(India) doing. In case you havn’t read it yet.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060807&articleId=2915

Posted by Peace at August 14, 2006 07:19 PM

Peace - India’s agreement to ban Arab TV channels was probably struck earlier in the year when India won military concessions from the US (I recall - correctly I hope - Eric doing aan article on this). It appears the PR stage was being set back then for the current oinvasion of Lebanon.

Posted by ghawley at August 14, 2006 08:14 PM

For Rampart, who asked earlier what came from Israel:

“Proportionally, Israel has more university graduates, publishes more academic papers and patents more products than any nation in the world. It has the largest concentration of hi-tech companies outside of Silicon Valley, and twice as many engineers as the U.S.

Running an anti-virus program on your computer? Israel invented them. Talking on a chat line? Israel invented ICQ. Using a cell phone? Israeli companies pioneered voicemail messages, text messages and the transmission of pictures of movie clips. Hate when you call a company and they tell you the conversation is being monitored “for training and quality assurances purposes”? Blame Israel: They invented that technology. Have a relative who had a CAT scan or an MRI test? Those life-saving machines were partly developed in Israel.”

It’s part of an article that you’ll hate, because it is spot on:

http://www.ottawasun.com/News/Columnists/Smith_Jordan_Michael/2006/08/14/pf-1753172.html

Posted by Bino at August 14, 2006 10:44 PM

It’s far too soon to be cheering over who won or lost this war. It ain’t over yet. The shooting may die down for a time but nothing’s been settled. The Olmert government is on the block and may not survive - odd treatment for a winner, but what replaces it could change outcomes. Other political moves will follow so results are really unpredictable. Best to keep your powder dry for a while longer.

It’s sad but ironic that Sharon seems to be slipping away as this situation settles. Is it an omen of some kind?

Posted by adelhard at August 14, 2006 11:27 PM

Let’s see now, Bino, the entire Marshall plan cost the USA $11 billion after WWII, Israel has received on the books over $200 billion for a fraction of the population. What Israel is most remembered for is the training of Iran’s secret police, SAVAK. If you look at what you consider great scientific achievement, virtually every facet of it deals with the promolugation of a fascist state. If what you cite is true, then why is the USA continuing to give Israel billions of dollars every year…these patents alone, even if never put into a manufacturing phase, would make Israel the richest country in the world.

Aside from lousy, watery avocadoes all the government ofIsrael is known for now is lying, torture, and murder. They have become the Nazis they so hated. It’s time for the USA to invade Israel to save them from themselves.

Posted by Toumbak at August 15, 2006 12:22 AM

No one ever truly wins in any war; however, some are bigger losers than others. “Winning” is a matter of who accomplished their objectives to the greatest extent while preventing others from achieving theirs. Obviously, Israel did not fair so well if we apply such definitions. Personally, I am not really on any ones side, but I can not help but feel empathy for those who continue to face such modern imperialistic nations. I do not have the stomach for war; any war; I am ashamed to admit that I could not help but feel good about Hezbullah’s success. It is becoming more difficult in this world to ‘see’ what is right when everyone is killing and being killed. Both Israel and Hezbullah have killed shopkeepers, families, mothers and fathers, children, students- they have killed people my age, studying like me, dreaming like me and wanting to do so much more than die because of someoneelses imperialistic agenda, someone elses, inability to share, and someone elses religious wrath. I read this column and I read what most of you write- from the insightful to the bizarre- I read it, but post seldom. Often you all point out interesting articles which I might not have read and sometimes I enjoy the good cat fight now and then, but it concerns me how little attention is paid to what is being lost in the arguments of what is being won. There are no winners here, gentelmen, except for maybe those who always win; business men of sorts. This I assure you. In fact, we are all losing; we are losing too much too fast these days. My hope is that some kind of cultural revolution will be possible as people wake up from the nightmare of extreme nationalism that has been the trend along with its special quality of propaganda and ‘manufacturing of consent’. The world is growing weary of the policies and failures of US foreign policy and the extreme wickedness of the World Bank/IMF economic/politic which is reducing the life in this world to an unbearable hell for most of us.

Israel, Hezbullah, the US, Iraq, England, France, China, North Korea or South Korea… wherever. People need to begin to vote with their dollars- stop buying shit- stop supporting thieves and murderers in our our governments and in our community commercial areas.

If you cant interpret the news stop watching it; especially if its the CNN or FOX network or BBC (Bino):

About Global Research

“The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of writers, scholars and activists. It is a registered non profit organization in the province of Quebec, Canada.

The Global Research webpage at www.globalresearch.ca based in Montreal publishes news articles, commentary, background research and analysis on a broad range of issues, focussing on social, economic, strategic, geopolitical and environmental processes.

Our website was established on the 9th of September 2001, two days before the tragic events of September 11. Barely a few days later, Global Research had become a major news source on the New World Order and Washington’s “war on terrorism”.

Since September 2001, we have established an extensive archive of news articles, in-depth reports and analysis on issues which are barely covered by the mainstream media.

During the war on Iraq, Global Research published, on a daily basis, independent reports from the Middle East, which provided an alternative to the news emanating from the “embedded” journalists reporting from the war theater. Several Global Research authors have received awards for their writings. In 2005, two Global Research authors have received the “Project Censored Award”, University of California at Sonoma.

Numerous universities, libraries and research institutions have established a link to Global Research on their respective web sites.

Global Research is classified by Alexa (the web-ranking organization), as The Number One Globalization Site. In early 2006, Global Research had more than 15,000 unique visitors per day.

Global Research has received for four years in succession, the Goodwriters Democratic Media Award, classified among the best 80 alternative news sites.”

We need innovative, talented leaders, who are willing to put themselves on the line for something better than this shit.

People think George is the problem; he’s not. The problem is there are millions of Georges out there who believe in the myth of America and will kill anyone to protect that myth in securing control of the worlds wealth. Most people in the middle east are capable of peace and crave it; what is in the way is fierce nationalism and religious fanaticism (we all know this). I state it simply, because it is that simple and most of the media, in actuality, our nations governments and corporate sponsors try to convince us that ‘the situation’ is complex. It is not. Its just kids pissing on each others side of the sandbox; soon enough, there will be too much piss for any of us to play in it anymore.

Posted by Joshua at August 15, 2006 02:08 AM

D. Canuck: Right on. People in power need support, so they’ll always claim Victory. Remember Arab-Israeli war of 1973 ? All sides claimed victory.

oldfan: I agree, PanArabisim is a shameless and disgraceful idea. Gamal Abdul-Nasser is nothing but a big mouth loser (and he lost). His big mouth aggrevated the Israelis so much in ‘67 that they thought if they didn’t strike first, Gamal would strike. The truth of the fact is Gamal was never planning to strike !

Hezbollah’s resolve against the IDF is contributed to their belief and Iran. Iran is not Arabic and Hezbollah wasn’t fighting in the name of Arabs. This is a victory for Iran & Hezbollah, not for the Arabs.

The Arabs stood in silence, Venzuella expelled its Israeli ambassador while Arab countries like Qatar, Jordan, Egypt continued full relations with Israel. A shame for Arabs…..damn shame…

Posted by Tiamo at August 15, 2006 09:22 AM

OT - These people need a state NOW!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22107_A_Death_Cult_Party_in_Jenin&only

Posted by Bino at August 15, 2006 09:23 AM

Ruppert and globalresearch.ca are priceless.

According to him, not only was Dick Cheney a planner in the 9/11 attacks, but that on the day of the attacks he was actually running a completely separate command, control and communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the FAA, The Pentagon, or the White House Situation Room.

Also, I love the “shrinking body” article. Just like the one that came out maybe two years ago – Are US troops using martian technology to shrink their enemies? Now it’s Israeli troops turning Arabs in to Beetlejuice. Classic.

Great stuff. Keep it coming!

Posted by Bino at August 15, 2006 10:20 AM

Yes Yes, lets all of us agree here for Bino’s sake that israel is

-all powerful
-completely benevolent
-never does anything wrong
-is the victim of all those bloodthristy Arabs
-and in its latest battle knocked the living day
lights out of Hizboullah
-is a human rights model

Okay Bino, I succumb to your superior intellect, your honest discourse at this forum etc etc etc.

Now stop craving for attention for all the wrong reasons, be a good boy go sit down in a corner and suck on your thumb, you need a lot of pacifying.

As for the rest of you terribles go see Seymour Hersh’s interview with Amy Goodman on Democracy Now.

You all just might learn something that may change your mindset and possibly start to see eye to eye with Bino.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/08/14/1358255

Posted by oldfan at August 15, 2006 01:04 PM

Well put Joshua! Excellent bit of writing. Yes there are no winners. Hizbollah may come out looking better - and they deserve to - but they hardly won either. I’m sure they are relieved this did not spiral into a larger war involving Syria, maybe even Iran.

George Bush is not the problem. Absolutely right! The entire USA, from its politicians to its media, was grippied with war fever. Its lackey neighbouring nations, including the UN, appeased America’s will as they always do. Puppet regimes in Jordan, Egypt and Arabia are not the only hypocrites around. Bravo to Hizbollah for being the only ones willing to stand up and fight for the Palestinians. BTW whatever happened to Gaza? Does it even exist any more?

Posted by Paul Whiteside at August 15, 2006 01:07 PM

Oldman, if you could point me in the direction of any comment I made to the effect of Israel being:

“-all powerful
-completely benevolent
-never does anything wrong
-and in its latest battle knocked the living day
lights out of Hizboullah
-is a human rights model”

That’d be great. But you can’t. So continue to set up straw men. Working really well for you so far.

Paul Whiteside:

“Bravo to Hizbollah for being the only ones willing to stand up and fight for the Palestinians. BTW whatever happened to Gaza? Does it even exist any more?”

Bwahaha! You’re pathetically naïve and need to grow up. Iran doesn’t give a shit about Palestinians. But by all means, romanticize the brave “freedom fighters” of Hezbollah. Bravo, gentleman. Nobody can launch missiles at civilians like you can! Those guys make Che look like fag.

You are the epitome of a useful idiot, Paul.

Posted by Bino at August 15, 2006 01:24 PM

This is nothing new for israel, old habits die hard:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/750384.html

Posted by oldfan at August 15, 2006 01:53 PM

“When the brother(israel) was busy beating a child(Lebanon) in the street what was the sister(India) doing. In case you havn’t read it yet.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060807&articleId=2915

Posted by Peace at August 14, 2006 07:19 PM”

I like to use another ideology…Israel the Pimp, America its whore, Britain the poodle and India all three’s janitor or as we in Pakistan like to say bhangan…

Posted by williamwallace at August 15, 2006 01:56 PM

Bino- you seem to express anger when people accuse you of taking the side of Israel and, according to your previous and past posts indicate that you are misunderstand. Perhpas, you could stop summarizing articles, speaking vaguely and using most of yoru space for saying how wrong everyone is and provide clarity as to what you are trying to express. As far as I can tell, from your words in your posts you love Israel to a fault (I dont love my country to that extent) which is your choice, but then you deny what you seem to express the most through your tone, dinction, and composition. If you are so misunderstood then please elaborate in a more clearly articulate fashion. You are not the only person I disagree with, but you the only one who does not make any sense. I at least know what others positions are and I believe that is the problem most people in this forum have with you. Good luck.

Posted by Joshua at August 15, 2006 02:07 PM

Joshua,

You might as well try to convince a monkey at the zoo to stop flinging turds at you. He’ll just fling another turd and screech with delight.

Posted by D. Canuck at August 15, 2006 03:42 PM

oldfan - thanks to the Democracy Now! link. I discovered the DM! link to an interview with Robert Fisk, mid-east foreign correspondent. Robert has lived in Beirut for 30 years. His recounting from first-hand experience the war is most interesting, and most sad:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/19/1345257&mode=thread&tid=25

Posted by ghawley at August 15, 2006 04:50 PM

Nothing like a good insult to stir up the message board. Thanks Bino!

Though you offered nothing tangible in your post for me to respond to - just negative whining - I’ll reply to a couple of comments you sort of made in passing

1) I forgot it’s all Iran’s fault. Isn’t that the cheerleading line George and Tony have been reciting? Israel bombs Lebanon’s new democracy. America rush bigger bombs to them through their British lackeys. Both Britian and America hold up a ceasefire for a couple of weeks. But it’s still Iran’s fault! Sorry I missed what they did. Of course when you’re five years into the Bush/Blair fantasy run you never need facts to inconvenience any preconceived ideas.

2) Israel has made Hizbollah look like brave freedom fighters. Had nothing to do with me. Targeting civilians? It was the IDF who killed 75% civilians. More than 50% of Hizbollah victims were Israeli military. But don’t allow such simple facts to allow you to stray from the Zionist/Bush propaganda.

Posted by Paul Whiteside at August 15, 2006 11:50 PM

I see Oldfan(Ghawley) is still at it. It is pathetic to watch him undermine this forum.

Posted by mikhel at August 16, 2006 01:15 AM

Regarding Oldfan(Ghawley):

He definitely has an agenda.. stray from it and feel his wrath.

Posted by mikhel at August 16, 2006 01:15 AM

oldfan - are you getting a kick of mikhel’s brilliant insight?

Posted by ghawley at August 16, 2006 08:54 AM

Ghawley:

I can’t speak for Oldfan, but I’m sure getting a kick out it.

I don’t know… the way he wrote “undermine this forum”, I got a pic in my head of Snow White’s seven dwarfs digging a tunnel….. hahahahahaha

This guy is ridiculous and funny.

Bino:

1. only a loser posts links to pics that can easily be faked.

Fortunately, we aren’t as gullible as you are.

2. The question was, idiot, what does Isreal make. There was nothing in the article that gave me the name of a product, or company or toaster, or DVD player/recorder or anything. Just some self tooting crap that Isreal has done research on this or that. Puh-leeze….. like Toumbak pointed out above, these lies don’t stand up to the fact that Isreal is no Japan.

Where are all the consumer goods, or industrial goods that Isreal has “invented”? Do they come with a “made in Isreal” label on them? Anyone seen any? LOL

Again, we aren’t as gullible as you are. We only believe in what we see on the ground. Not what somneone claims in an opinion article in a newspaper.

3. As to whether Isreal won or lost…. if one starts with the belief (which most of us share) that Isreal planned this for some time and that this action was supposed to lead to a confrontation with Syria or Iran… then yes Isreal has lost.

WilliamWallace:

Bhangan…??? LOL

Sad but true.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 10:18 AM

Yeah bhangan as in female bhangi…

Posted by williamwallace at August 16, 2006 12:55 PM

Yes yes… a chamarni, a maasi, a jamadarni. An appropriate decription of the whore nation next door. LOL

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 01:31 PM

Paul:

1. In July, Hezbollah executed a cross-border raid and captured two soldiers. This does not happen without the green light from Iran.

2. If you can’t see the difference between those who deliberately target civilians, cheer at their deaths (unless, irony of ironies, they accidentally kill a few Israeli Arabs, who are then proclaimed to be martyrs) and hide among women and children while lobbing rockets and the actions of Israel, then I don’t even know what to say.

Clamfart:

1. I now all about fake pictures. Google Hajj and tell me what you think. As far as those disgusting images, if you are claiming they are not the sick celebrations of a death cult, please provide some sort of evidence that they were staged.

2. Their big tickets items are basically:
1. Medical, dental & pharmaceutical supplies
2. Telecommunications equip
3. Measuring, testing & control instruments
4. Photo and service industry machinery & trade tools
5. Electrical parts
6. Industrial organic chemicals
7. Diamonds.

Tons of software development there. Intel has manufacturing plants and a development center in Israel. Centrino mobile technology was developed there. Ever heard of Israeli companies like Check Point? Radvision? We use their stuff here at my work. That would be something they make, idiot. Why don’t you invest a few rupees on one of those fancy Google machines, dumbass. If you’re not too busy trying to find “just one bitch”.

Outside the U.S. and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Here is a list of Israeli companies on wall street: http://www.ishitech.co.il/stock_page.htm

Finally, re: “Again, we aren’t as gullible as you are. We only believe in what we see on the ground. Not what somneone claims in an opinion article in a newspaper.”

Sorry Clamfart, but the weekly Margolis circle jerks you participate in proves you are a hypocrite on this point. WTF do you think Eric’s missives are? Wake up and smell yourself, stupid.

Posted by Bino at August 16, 2006 01:55 PM

Gullibility.

“Do you think hypnotism can help me quit smoking?”

“Sure! A hypnotist cured me, but he charged me $500.”

“What did he cure you of, smoking?”

“No, being gullible.”

(this place is hurting some levity)

Posted by D. Canuck at August 16, 2006 02:44 PM

Bino:

I seem to have touched your Zionist nerve, eh?

Lets face it, everyone here thinks you’re a joke. Just remember, it was me you turned you into this joke. OK?

1. No, I don’t have to prove shit if those pics are fake or not. It doesn’t work that way. You gave a link to those pics, trying to convince us of your sick views. So the burden of proof lies with you. Being the little Zionist poodle that you are, I’m not holding my breath btw.

2. Those “big ticket” items…. these are what any country makes. Hell, Pakistan makes this shit… a world leader in surgical equipment. Many others make similar stuff. So what? Yet again… you don’t name companies and their products.

Where is Isreal’s “Sony” or “Panasonic”? huh? LOL. Where is a made-in-Isreal toaster? Or don’t you get any toasted bread in your little shithole?

You do however give me a few obscure names of two companies. Please do let us all know what do they exactly make?

So some of Intel’s tech was developed in Isreal? More likely, Intel threw the dog a bone and let them take credit.

Being listed on Wall Street can also mean you are a financial pimp (like Enron, the outsourcing experts, LOL), not necessarily a maker of stuff. Most Isreali companies are financial pimps. They don’t make anything… they just shuffle money here and there and make more. Paper producing more paper. So don’t worry about it. Isreal has plugged itself into the American economy like the leech it is. And a leech will only suck blood (by sending up property prices and rents for example).

My simple question was “Why isn’t Isreal a Japan?” LOL. From the way you go on and on, these guys should be way ahead of Japan, China, Korea, etc. Yet all we see, is a beggar of a country living of the US taxpayer. Like they said above, how come Isreal isn’t the richest nation on earth (if your nonsense is to be believed)?

3. Yes, zionist, I’m well aware that I get the same “typekey” signup that shows up on my Walla email. I know Eric uses an Isreali server. Again… so what?

Or are you so pathetic that you think having servers and websites on the net is some kind of achievement, these days? hahahahahahaha

You’re really reaching. Try some more.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 03:48 PM

D Canuck:

Don’t make me call you a smelly poo-poo head.

Posted by Bino at August 16, 2006 03:48 PM

The white doves flutter
From the roofs
Where stones did utter
Dark reproofs.
That these pale pigeons
Be alarmed
Guerilla legions
Have been armed.
Effendi, Mufti,
Holy Ones—
They are not thrifty
With their stones.
This is the manner
Doves take flight:
The sky a banner
Blue and white.
———————————-
This zionist poem was for you, our very own resident zionist (Bino).

Anyone still thinks this guy is from Canada? hahahahaha

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 03:56 PM

Here is another one for our resident Zionist:

My heart is in the East, and I am at the ends of the West;
How can I taste what I eat and how could it be pleasing to me?
How shall I render my vows and my bonds, while yet
Zion lies beneath the fetter of Edom, and I am in the chains of Arabia?
It would be easy for me to leave all the bounty of Spain —
As it is precious for me to behold the dust of the desolate sanctuary.
——————————————

No wonder you’re full of shit.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 03:58 PM

Here, stupid:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Check_Point

Ever heard of ZoneAlarm, idiot? It’s a desktop firewall. I have no idea what life is like in that shithole of a country (which India will one day rule) you reside in, but I can tell you this – in North America, Zonealarm is quite a big thing.

And I didn’t even know Eric used the servers of the Jooooooos! Hilarious!

Posted by Bino at August 16, 2006 03:59 PM

PS - Here, Clamfart:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060813/481/7a9dadffa23344a8928bb27d6ca04d4d

Make you proud?

Posted by Bino at August 16, 2006 04:09 PM

Little zionist turd.

Eric doesn’t post pics here and his opinion is rather more believable than the shit you like to read.

We’re all wondering how thick your skull is that you can’t take a hint. LOL

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 04:37 PM

Oh… zonealarm? That thing that crashed your computer when you’re got a Torrent download going? hahahahahaha

Yeah, that’s what I thought. Shit products.

Oh… good. So it seems to be real huh? If so, then yes, I’m proud of them killing a collaborator.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 04:44 PM

If naming bloatware is the best this little Zionist can do…..

Are you aware, Bino, that admitting to using Zonealarm confirms you’re a KEWL? So does using anything called Norton? Or if you’re using AOL? LOL

Trust me, you would rather walk around with your zipper open.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 05:01 PM

D.Canuck:

Levity aside, I think what is happening here is that rational discourse is being put aside for nonsense back and forth, off topic.

I have noticed the same phenomenon occurring at other places.

This is a clear strategy to divert the discussion or lines of reasoning aside from its intended objective to inform, educate, learn and know different perspectives.

Certain individuals have a habit of summarizing, criticizing and encapsulating the thoughts and concepts of others without putting forth their own ideas.

I have been accused of putting up straw man maneuvers and such without any substantiation or proof from my accuser.

Well man! STAND UP, give some proof, some for instances, give us your point of view.

As I said before if you don’t have any thing to contribute, just SHUT UP and crawl back into the hole you came from.

I am being equated with being one and the same as “ghawley”, which is also fine as I have no way of proving to the contrary, nor do I care to the person known as “mikhel”.

This person by the way to date has not offered any original or substantive thoughts to any ongoing line of discussion.

Even Bino, to his credit tries to offer a feeble defense for his beloved israel, even though, he is not very expansive on what he believes or what he stands for, with the exception that israel is the harbinger of great discoveries and new and innovative technologies.

Bino, I will tell you what israel is at the vanguard of:

New and innovative;

-ways stealing Palestinian lands
-ways of avoiding implementation of countless UN
resolutions while calling on other states to
States to implement theirs
-techniques of assasinations
-ways of calling everyone that criticizes it, as
anti-Semitic
-techniques of wholesale imprisoning and torture
-the best one though is the snafuing (new word
maybe) a great many people by using the
Holocaust card

I could rattle of a whole list of other cutting edge technologies that israel is famous for, but maybe another day.

ghawley:

Yes, a kick, its barrel of laughs, I am in stitches.

Sometimes one has to make allowances for simplistic minds, well; maybe mikhel does not know how to articulate the thoughts very well.

Posted by oldfan at August 16, 2006 05:20 PM

Oh, lest I be accused of the same, please let me atleast inform and disseminate what the right wing in umrikka is saying these days;
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51529

Posted by oldfan at August 16, 2006 05:27 PM

Rampart - you must have heard the quip by Sam Brown - “Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance.”

As for the many Isreal listings on nasdaq, the US has a free trade agreement with Israel that is even more open to Israeli products than Canada’s so-called free trade agreement. This enables Israeli companies to suck more money from the gullible US. It doesn’t matter if Israeli companies make money because buying such stock, worthless or not, is a great way to launder more US money.

Bino, as for your using Israeli technology, most of it swiped from others no doubt, that just says you probably work for a jewish company who buys jewish products as part of the diaspora’s obligation to boost Israel every which way (lying definitely included).

Posted by ghawley at August 16, 2006 05:34 PM

So… now that we have established where Bino is come from…. (a Zionist, through and through), it all makes sense…. sort of.

His aim is to humiliate himself in front of strangers on the internet. As if it will make Isreal’s humiliation any less…. Funny how his mind works. God, he is dedicated….

Now I get it.

Posted by Rampart at August 16, 2006 05:41 PM

OUTSTANDING bigotry, gentlemen. Really top notch stuff.

Rampart, you are incoherent.

Gwahley - so what? Bottom line is Clamfart went onnnnn and onnnnn about how Israel doesn’t contribute shit, this coming from a man-child who lives in a failed state (that could afford nukes, however! Yippie!), and the NASDAC listings clearly indicate as much. Additionally, Clamfart doesn’t seem to know much about knowledge-based businesses. If it isn’t a “toaster”, it he won’t count it.

Hey Clamfart - new business models - welcome to the new millenium!

Posted by Bino at August 16, 2006 06:35 PM

What is the point of this debate pertaining to the problems at hand? I understand that Bino says outrageous, nonsensical things and, I believe, it is merely to be a pain while preventing people from discussing more relevant important matters.

I propose to members of this forum that we move forward and discuss matters of more importance in a more serious and productive manner while treating Bino’s wildly reckless and nonsensical outbursts of singlemindedness for what they are- ramblings.

In addition, I do not care if oldfan and ghawley are the same person or not; what does it matter; let it go; we all have an agenda- everyone does.

As long as they express something that makes sense whether it is agreeable or not.

I am interested to get to the task of discussing what people think of the ceasefire and, I am interested to know what people think in regards to the state of the Lebabese geovernment and how they will proceed from here in picking up the pieces?

Surely, Israel has been hurt in world opinion (except the US and UK I suppose) and what might be the consequences for them in regards to this?

Posted by Joshua at August 16, 2006 06:49 PM

Joshua - well said comme d’habitude. Let’s ignore bino’s ramblings. Bino we will respond to meaningful inputs so feel free to contribute after you’ve been deprogrammed.

Joshua, you need to understand the Israeli mentality as my double, oldfan, to which has eluded. Israelis believe that possession is nine-tenths of the law. In other words, they create facts on the ground and leave others to react.

And how does the world community react to their systemic discrimination, mass torture, assasinations, you know the list — with words. Some words take the form of UN Resolutions, others carefully crafted statements from politicians or outbursts from actors, but no one takes a stand on the ground. Except Hezb and Iran.

Since Israel remote controls their US bodyguard, expect to see more aggression heading their way. So words words words. After alsmot 40 years Israeli still has the Palestinians confined to a concentration camp, the world teetering on the brink of yet more wars. Their state motto may as well be “Sticks and stones may break my bones (but no one dares to throw them - except Hezb) but words will never hurt me.” Its true too. Which country dare propose a trade or other embargo on that renegade state? I wonder why.

Posted by ghawley at August 16, 2006 09:07 PM

So, what is the betting on how long this ceasefire will last? I mean, it can’t end here — it’s really not much more than the status quo ante, and it doesn’t seem like anyone has the stomach to disarm Hezbollah. There’ll be some downtime while Israel re-assesses its leadership - and really hard to say just who the new guys will be or what their stance will be. But finding an Israeli leader who can get enough support for a whole new approach with Hez & Hamas is going to be difficult. Tho’, if they have any clues, they’ll rethink their anti-guerilla strategy as a minimum. And Hezbollah will need some time to rebuild its numbers, rearm and regain Arab support — the stuff we are hearing now about everyone fully ‘supporting’ Hezbollah will begin to disappear, I think, once the Lebanese people start to rebuild their lives and hoist in just why this all happened. Or will pressure from other Arab governments keep Hezbollah quiet for a while? So, is one year too soon? Or will the US do something really stupid and make a military move on Iran in the meantime?

Posted by adelhard at August 16, 2006 10:17 PM

Fascinating… so after seeing the list of products that are manufactured in Israel, Rampart and Ghawley dismiss all of them in sum as beng ‘stolen’ techolgies. Their basis for belief? Oh.. the Zionists are all thieves and liars anyway. Did it ever occur to you that not all Israelis are Zionists? Heck, if people credited the Nazi regime in it’s day of having a substantial technology sector, why is it so hard to do the same with Israel, since you have no evidence to the contrary?

Half the HPLC and Microarray equipment used in our lab was manufactured in Israel, and is supported by Israeli scientists in the tech centers. The only Pakistani equipment we have in the lab are scissors, forceps, and lab coats.

A simple search of Highwire or Pubmed will reveal over 19,000 citations by scientists working in Israel on a vast multitude of basic science, public health, and biotechnology. They aren’t toasters, but they are technology.

To admit that Israel does have a high tech industry is not the same as condoning their foreign policy actions. The former is a simple fact regardless of what you think of the latter point.

What’s interesting about you, (ghawley and rampart) is that you both take the proof that is offered about the fact (Israel has a high tech economy), dismiss it as stolen without providing any proof of your assertion, and then proceed to criticize others for not substantiating their views. And you think your perspective is somehow balanced?

Let’s see how many obscene posts this will generate from Rampart, and how many giggles Ghawley will expel at listening to his forum attack dog yip incoherently at substantive arguments. I’m casting lots…

Posted by chatman at August 16, 2006 11:20 PM

Joshua,

I am not sure where the ceasefire is going. I trust/hope that Hezb is smart enough to realize they won this round and not stir the pot. They have galvanized many Arabs and even non-Arabs with their staunch war against immoral aggressors. They should regroup and reload because the Israelis will come back. As seen in the Occupied Territories, their lust for land is insatiable.

The Lebanese government can not disarm Hezb. If the Israeli’s can’t, then I doubt anyone else can. Therefore, the govt should try to incorporate them somehow into their army. I don’t really know how that can be done but it is likely easier than trying to disarm them.

As for the rest of the hipocritical mideast leaders, I hope their populations take them to task for being cowards. Some people revolution in those countries would do the world some good.

Right now, I think things will stay quiet. Israel is licking their wounds and Hezb needs to regroup.

Posted by guesswho at August 17, 2006 12:04 AM

Ah Chatman, the Harami-Hindu from India….. whats up? We all know you’re an Indian, who are known Isreali cock-suckers, so you’ll say whatever to defend them.

As for Bino, everyone is of the opinion his only purpose is to shill for the likes of FOX news and make a silly statement to distract from the topic.

Isreal’s hi-tech isn’t what it looks like. If the US vanishes, how long do you think Isreal’s “hi-tech” economy will survive? Not even a year.

All of their products are begged and borrowed and relabeled.

And here is an old link for you…… LOL. Don’t worry about Pakistan’s hi-tech… whatever it is at least it is for real. Hindu brains aren’t made for understanding this kind of shit.

http://pakistantimes.net/2004/12/16/business3.htm

Now then, does anyone remember the Isreali propaganda that Hizbollah throws acid on the faces of women who aren’t properly dressed?

I remember this crap when Hizbollah first made Isreal squirm…. but like all Isreali lies, this too died out.

Posted by Rampart at August 17, 2006 01:22 AM

Why are Chatman and Bino so out and out trying to convince us about Isreal’s “hi tech”? Why is this point so important to them?

Aren’t you guys surprised at how tenaciously these guys are defending this point?

I suppose it forms the core of Isreal’s propaganda that Isreal is indispensable to the world. The zionist mantra.

Well…. it isn’t.

You guys are getting a peak into the mentality of two Zionists right here. One is a turd flinging monkey, and the other belongs to a nation that bans Arabic TV channels the moment the first bombs were dropped.

Just pointing out the obvious.

Posted by Rampart at August 17, 2006 01:33 AM

http://www.dawn.com/2006/08/17/op.htm#2

“Who loses this war”

Posted by Rampart at August 17, 2006 05:56 AM

Harami Hindu:

You have not offered any “proof” that sez that Isreal has a viable economy without the US. Just coming up with the name of one product…. and a lousy one at that… ZoneAlarm… was like pulling teeth.

Hey everyone… did you guys know that India produces the largest number of PhD.s who publish the largest number of papers in scientific journals?

But…. All their publications are worthless. They are the scientific equal of me replying to an email, pasting the other guy’s whole message and writing “I agree” at the end. There. My name is in a scientific journal. Its a bit more elaborate than that actually, but in essence, that is it.

Something of this nature is happening with Isreal and its “scientists” and their “research” (repeat-research actually… duplicating experiments keeps funding from Amreeka coming along) and their “hi-tech”. 19,000 references and still can’t make a toaster? LOL.

The point is, that if Isreal’s tech was any good, Pakistan would’ve been screwed by now. India uses Isreali weapons and early warning radars…. they aren’t helping the buggers, are they?

And Harami-Hindu…. “our lab”?? Who let a cow-dung worshipping, piss-drinking (known as “Hindu Cola”) inside a lab? What kind of lab is it? Details please.

How many obscene posts does this make by your count?

Posted by Rampart at August 17, 2006 06:14 AM

Chatman:

Because I support a sister democracy and UN member state in it’s struggle against armed militias I am labeled by those here as a Zionist, a “turd-flinging monkey”, and summarily dismissed. If you check the archives, when I have defended the actions of the US I was labeled a Southern Baptist redneck republican hick FOX news shill. I am painted in whatever light makes them feel better about themselves.

Of course, I am none of those things, but that is the manner in which these fine men choose to defend their inane arguments.

Rampart – you are a disgusting racist.

re: “Why are Chatman and Bino so out and out trying to convince us about Isreal’s “hi tech”? Why is this point so important to them?”

Check the archives – you brought it up, dumbass. Racist and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

Hey, here is a neat read:

A Spot Of Tea Lands Lebanese General In Tight Spot

A Lebanese general sits in jail today after committing a terrible crime — having tea with an Israeli. During the military operation, the IDF captured his barracks and held Adnan Daoud and 350 of his men prisoner, but apparently did so rather informally. A videotape taken during the event shows Daoud drinking tea with the soldiers as both sides acted cordially:

A Lebanese general was ordered arrested Wednesday for appearing in a videotape drinking tea with IDF soldiers who had occupied his south Lebanon barracks during their incursion of the country.

Adnan Daoud was summoned and ordered held for questioning, Interior Minister Ahmed Fatfat said in a statement. Daoud is commanding officer of the 1,000-strong joint police-army force that had positions in southern Lebanon and was based in Marjayoun.

IDF troops seized the barracks there last week and held him and 350 soldiers for a day before allowing them to leave the occupied zone. The Lebanese garrison, which is lightly armed, did not resist the Israeli force which moved in armor into the base.

In the videotape, aired on Israeli television and carried by a Lebanese TV station Wednesday, Daoud was shown having tea with smiling Israeli soldiers and walking with them in the base courtyard.

“He was very polite with me,” Daoud said of his first encounter with an Israeli colonel in this conflict or any other. It most likely will be the last.

Daoud finds himself in jail not for fraternization, but for exposing the real nature of the war. Israel had no beef with the kind of military police force Daoud commanded. In fact, Israel wants to have precisely these kinds of forces across their northern border, rather than the Hezbollah terrorists that have held the territory for years. That is why Israeli soldiers treated Daoud so chivalrously.

The Siniora government cannot afford to have the Lebanese see the Israelis treating the LA well, however, at least not while Hassan Nasrallah is still in charge. It interferes with the preferred terrorist narrative that the Israelis committed a war of aggression on Lebanon instead of a war against the terrorists that committed a casus belli in the first place. If Israel treats Lebanese people in a friendly manner, then the Lebanese people will wonder why they need Hezbollah protecting them from the IDF.

It shows that the Siniora government still finds itself hostage to the terrorists and their propaganda. Unfortunately, Daoud is the type of officer who could help establish peace and work with the Israelis to make further wars unnecessary. That also conflicts with the aims of Hezbollah and their masters in Damascus and Teheran. Daoud’s tea tour will likely make him into a martyr for radicalism.

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 08:50 AM

The obscenity continues as Israel tries to deflect criticism from its permeditated murder of civilians (bombed a convoy of refugees, etc. etc) and deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure by suing the Lebanese government for damages caused by Hezbollah!!! Sick. See:

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0274.htm#Top

Bino, you keep missing the point. Israel is a terror state. You calling Hezb a terro organization is the Fox take on it. Unlike Israel Hezb weapons do not have satellite guided laser targetting. Israel and the likes of you call Hezb a terror group but in fact Hezb, the Infatadha, even Al Qaeda, are resistance movements to the racist terror state you hold so dear.

Israel is no better than South Africa under apartheid and actually is a lot worse. It makes war on it neighbours and more cruelly oppressions the rights of those under their heel. Like I said, while there are Israelis and diaspora Jews who see this, the zionists (code for land grabbers) hold sway.

Why indeed is Israel allowed membership in the UN when South Africa was not? Because zionists, through their money, control US foreign policy.

You know that is so. So as far as I am concerned, your case for Israel being a light of technology (much of it for spying) is yet another deflection from the facts on the ground. I would respect you more if you came clean on this and answered the questions I have asked you about Israel.

Posted by ghawley at August 17, 2006 09:28 AM

Al Qaeda is a “resistance movement”?

I used to think you were just an idiot, but that statement makes quite clear that you are more than that. You’re a sick sack of shit. I care as much about your “respect” as I do Clamfart’s ability to get “just one bitch”.

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 10:15 AM

Bino, wow, no reasoning with you.

The only way you can talk to the guy is by saying something like : Bino you piece of stinkin shit, worthless monkey ass faced fucker go drown in your own pool of shit.

There.

P.S. : I am sorry for the words people. This blog should not be used for this, I was simply making a statement.

Posted by theking01 at August 17, 2006 10:50 AM

The “domestic dispute” analogy is so flawed it hurts.

Perhaps if he’d stated that your neighbour had kidnapped two of your children, the picture might be framed a little more accurately. But acts of war, like incursions in to sovereign nations and kidnapping soldiers, should be “negotiated”. I suppose, in his flawed analogy, the man whose children are kidnapped by his neighbour should have “negotiated” with their captor first. Like any of you would, naturally.

Pathetic.

And as far as “And by the controversy initiated by the United Nations’ Jan Egeland about the ‘cowardly blending’ of Hizbullah fighters among Lebanese civilians, a comment…based on evidence he has never divulged”

What, you think he made that up? Jesus. Try this, for starters:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060730Lebanon01.jpg
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060730Lebanon02.jpg
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21842#comments

And as far as doctored photos, this guy misses the point. Here’s a good one:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22036#comments

And cropping photos? Oh yeah, try this one:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22022#comments

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 10:54 AM

Hey, thanks theking01! Long live the “Al Qaeda ‘resistance movement’ and death to the Joooooooos!”

I’m sure Eric would be thrilled his blog is filled with all you racists. Top shelf bigot circle jerk, fellas!

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 10:58 AM

WOw- this is getting worse & worse. There is more name calling and racial slurrs than actual discussion; that is too bad.

The ceasefire appears to be a good thing for everyone involved, but was delayed too long by Uncle Sam and company.

The destruction in Lebanon seems quote complete. Disarming Hezbullah is an unrealistic goal for anyone. They are too organized and well funded.

Hezbullah did start this conflict and the Lebanese people have suffered (died!) from it. A great deal of blood is on their hands. Israel has overreacted and the Lebanese suffer.

Everyone involved has to stop launching rockets at each other. Much like many people have to stop racializing the issues; it clouds reality and makes things worse.

Israelis suffer wrongly as well. There is a difference between the Israeli government and the civilians; there are civilians in Israel who condone their government. There have been youth movements and demonstrations aimed at creating better relations with thier neighbours in the past.

It is not an issue of Israelis vs. everyone else, but of the Israel government’s & the US government’s joint hegemony in the region.


Israel’s economy is irrelevant. They do have a strong economy and a great deal of talented people come from Israel- this is a debate about who is better and Nationalism is at the root of this argument. It does not matter, it is insignificant; a red herring.

What is going on the world is far more urgent than who makes toasters and who is more technologically advanced.

The starvation, violence, and imbalance of wealth in the world is staggering and people argue about … Israel’s economic production?

It is US foreign policy/directive (since the early 20th c.) to control over 50% of the world’s wealth while maintaining less than 10% of the world’s population.

The US needs Israel as an ally in the miidle east for geopolitical advantages.

Wherever there are resources, the US is there. If they were not, then someone else will be.

Every military campaign has been an atrocity of violence and imperialism: Haiti, Cuba, Grenada, Phillipines, El Salvador, Panama, Iraq, and so on.

The African continent is a failed state because of impieralism and World Bank/IMF policies make these people (and other peoples in other regions) entirely dependent on foreign services. The end result, is groups form and fight over what little wealth is in the region (diamonds, oil, and minerals).

The middle east is pretty much the same. Oil, water, and space are the commodities. With proper planning and negotiations, there is plenty for everyone, but European imperialism and now American imperialism have messed this region up more than it needs to be.

A couple of centuries of economic oppression by foreign invaders plundering Arab lands and wealth is enough to drive people to desperate measures.

You do not occupy someones house, eat there food, burn there wood while leaving their children hungry and cold and when they try to kill you call them terrorists.

The problem is not this nation or that nation; these people or those people. The attitude of “these people” or “those people” is a real problem and where it does not exist it will be created via the media and governments in order to gain consent to commit atrocities.

This ceasefire was stalled and stalled in order to enrage a people. This is nation making and nation breaking at its best.

People are being mutilated in Africa; children are being raped and are raping; this is not their fault, but the fault of our grand economic and political structure.

It is too expensive to fix these problems? How much did the war in Iraz cost? How much does it cost to rebuild Lebanon? How much did it cost to destroy it?

How much does it cost China to destroy the Tibetan people each day- bit by bit (and other unique East Asian peoples)?

How much does it cost Canada to keep troops in Afghanistan killing people?

What will it cost all of us in the end to stop using oil and gas and the very last possible minute is order to save ourselves?

The media delibrately makes it seem like there is some debate as to what is right and wrong? THey make it seem like not all scientists are agreed on global warming and pollutants- the top ones are in aggreeance.

THese issues are overwhelmingly linked. Terrible governments run amok and the most wealthy nations have the most responsibility to do something since that wealth is stolen and maintained through modern day slavery.

I have a great lifestyle here in Canada because someone somewhere else is willing to work for 9 cents an hour with no bathroom breaks.

What the hell do I care what Israel does or does not make?

Are Israelis bad people? No. They are in a state of paralyses; they are unable to do anything for themselves or their neighbours just like us.

We are all in a state of paralyis- frozen in time, reading articles, and watching events unfold while various governemtns, corporations, and individuals get rich.

These are not conspiricies; they are not so complex. IT is the structure and order of our world.

We are all paralysed.

Hezbullah? What do they want? They want to exterminate Israel. This is not realistic nor will it help anyone. Killing is not the answer. And what happens when an organization who’s mandate is to kill succeeds? They need somone else to kill or they disappear.

Some structural changes are needed in the UN and human rights have to be reinforced. We need to move away from the same old debates. The world has to change fast if we are to succeed as human beings.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 11:36 AM

Utilizing photos from websites is useless. No one can take random photos and then tell others what they are. This is propaganda 101- Im not saying they are real or fake- I cant possible know what is true- especially if the source has an offical position of politic towards things.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 11:45 AM

Lets agree to disagree.

This forum is degenerating very rapidly.

Rational discourse is taking a back seat to name calling and abuse, it cannot achieve anything.

At the end of the day even enemies will have to sit down and negotiate.

A little ribbing and jest makes this forum interesting, but seriously this is too much.

Let civility rule the day, after all we are all fairly educated and refined, this type of behaviour is contrary to all our positions.

Please cease and desist with the insults and name calling. Thankyou

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 11:47 AM

You do not kill without restraint when two SOLDIERS are captured. You do not destroy a nations entire infrastructure over this; you do not. It is unheard of and overly reactionary. Israel’s reputation has sorely suffered and many Israelis feel let down by their government.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 11:49 AM

Bino.

There you go again, misquoting someone. Clamfart… er… Rampart never said anything about his ability to get “just one bitch”. He was talking about was his INablility to get “just one bitch”.

Get your facts straight for fuck sakes.

Posted by D. Canuck at August 17, 2006 12:40 PM

D. Canuck - I feel great shame.

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 12:47 PM

Thanks Joshua for your wonderful post exposing all the maladies that afflict this world of ours.

But let me take issue with some of your points with regards to Hizboullah and I hope you can see my point.

You, say that Hizboullah started this current fiasco, this is categorically a wrong statement, I say israel is responsible as it changes the rules of the game at its own beckoning.

It is a known fact that this tit for tat kidnapping was an ongoing affair, which by the way would not have existed had israel not been holding on to the Lebanese prisoners by reneging on the agreement from a previous prisoner exchange deal.

Another point here is that, in this case there were bigger fish to fry.

If you have been keeping up with this story, you may have heard the story from Seymour Hersh of the Newyorker and many including Chomsky (both Jewish) that this aggression was preplanned just a pretext had to be manufactured.

As for your assertion that Hizboullah wants to exterminate israel is disingenuous, please present some references to validate your assertion.

Hizboullah is a movement that was born in 1982 as a resistance movement in response to israeli aggression in Lebanon.

To be exact the Shias of Lebanon at the time hailed and welcomed the israelis as liberators as they had become prisoners in their own lands under the PLO.

Eventually it was the barbarity of the israeli occuption that led to the germination of the indiginous resistance now called Hizboullah.

Joshua, I know that, you are jewish and naturally inclined towards israel, and feel, you have a good heart and I bear kinship with you on a level.

But truth has to begin within ourselves and we must be ever so vigilent to nurture it, if we are to do justice to our fellow beings.

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 12:52 PM

Our emotions provide the best counter-intelligence there is. Refusal to SEE, on both “sides” causes this thread to devolve, or rather, evolve into counter-intelligence.

Do you guys really think that Bino would stick around, or post more than one opinion (And it IS his opinion, whether anyone would care to ACCEPT it or not) if he didn’t get the gratification of you jumping down his throat? And mind you, you’re attacking him, and being attacked by him, over the Internet - the place where you can say whatever, and then hide behind your monitor.

Do any of you, including Bino, really think that using merely words, and adding emotional conviction, is really going to sway someone’s opinion?

I understand the irony of me suggesting, eith conviction, that our emotions are responsible for the counter-intel in this thread - What is it that you are trying to do, be you a Bino or a Rampart? Change someone else’s opinion? Force your perspective on someone else? Isn’t that sort of behaviour riling us up currently on an international stage?

Research Counter-intelligence, and research bullies, victimization and reactionary behaviour before you become marginalized due to your emotions.

Tovy

Posted by Tovy at August 17, 2006 01:10 PM

I was speechlees for a moment.

Oldfan I too feel Joshua’s heart is in the right place. This blog will help clear the cobwebs as he wants to know the truth. Joshua stands in stark constrast to bino who just rants about how great israel is and how bad everyone else is. With blinders like that israel will continue to see the decay of its moral fibre, led by the nose of the religious fundamentalist settlers and lesser rabid zionists.

Posted by ghawley at August 17, 2006 01:13 PM

Joshua,

On behalf of all Zionist pieces of stinkin shit, worthless monkey ass faced fuckers and all the redneck republican’s glued to FOX news, I’d like to very sincerely thank you for quite clearly noticing the elephant in the room:

“Hezbullah? What do they want? They want to exterminate Israel.”

Are there any who would disagree with this statement, and are there any here who don’t see a very serious problem with it?

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 01:14 PM

Gwahley, if you can point out where I’ve “ranted about how great Israel is”, I’d love to see it.

I mean yeah, I posted some business info to debunk Rampart, but outside of that, if you could find anything I’ve posted to the effect of “How great Israel is”, that would be great. Otherwise, you’re just full of shit and guilty of being everything you claim me to be above.

Thanks!

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 01:17 PM

One more thing for the record…

Bino, as negative and inciteful as he is, really isn’t striking me as the sort of personality that would grab a gun, track you down and start shooting.

There are in this group, however, people acting zealously, radically here, without checking their emotions at the door that I couldn’t say one way or another whether or not they would pick up a gun and shoot Bino given the chance.

Bino, though I do not agree with a lot of the things you say, I would defend your right to say as you will to the death.

I was born a Jew, but I’m also a “bleeding heart” that doesn’t like to see people killed for any reason. I side with the Ramparts and the Ghawleys and the Oldfans that Israel is sort of revealing a side that’s perhaps too dark for the world to accept. But I can also see from the perspective of the Bino’s that totalitarian societies and theocracies behave the way they do to maintain power. Propaganda is the art of using your own emotional skew to manipulate your opinion.

But:
“_Conservatism is the blind and fear-filled worship of dead radicals_” - Twain
AND
“_An eye for eye only ends up making the whole world blind._” - Ghandi

Objectivity is far less exciting, and far more useful. - Tovy

Posted by Tovy at August 17, 2006 01:25 PM

Bino:

Just making the statement and you repeating it that;

“Hezbullah? What do they want? They want to exterminate Israel.”

Is the same old trick that zionist have been using when they invoke the Holocaust card time and again.

The purpose of course is to muzzle critisizm of the zionist entity, which you will go to any length to achieve.

I wonder to which length you personally will go; will you sell your soul, or what?

It is not your rant of how great israel is, it is your unqualified defense, whether israel is right or wrong that is troublesome.

Do you feel that israel has the right to kill, torture, marginalize, steal etc with extreme prejudice in the name of self-defense and if that is your view, why are you here at this forum, the matter is seems is already decided in your mind.

Please refrain from the invective, as you will find it becomes extremely difficult to extricate yourself later. A word, for your own benefit.

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 02:01 PM

Tovy,

I think that quote actually goes…

“Sir, I may not agree with what you say but I’ll defend to the death my right to tell you to shut up” or something like that. And actually, I do think that some people can change being exposed to only words. We’re not all intractable.

Other Famous Quotes

“Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.”
George Santayana

“Democracy is the worst system except for all the others.”
Winston Churchill

“Are you gonna finish that donut?”
D.Canuck

Posted by D. Canuck at August 17, 2006 02:31 PM

Thanks for your comments and additional quotations.

I still think that people who can be swayed by words, can be swayed back by other words. Shocks to our system and sense of “right and wrong” can effectively change our attitudes, but I don’t think words are enough.

And I looked up the quote, and it IS: “I don’t agree with you but I will defend your right to say it to the death.”

Even Peter quotes it in Family Guy - What a hoot.

Posted by Tovy at August 17, 2006 03:03 PM

Sorry, Bino,

What is the problem with my statement? I am open to your criticism and I am willing to take it back if you are able to point out the problem with it.

As far as I can tell, Hezbullah’s main objective is to see the end of Israel’s hegemony (& US) in the region thus bringing their idea of “freedom” to thier oppressed brothers.

In short, their object is to remove the state of Israel. They are extremists in this sense. Sorry, if my menaing was unclear, but I doubt anyone would argue that Hezbullah craves nothing less in their ideal world.

Please elaborate on the problem of my statement because I do not want to go around saying such things if I am gravely mistaken.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 03:10 PM

“If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.”
-Noam Chomsky

Let the Palestinian people choose the representatives of their choice.

Solving the Palestinian issue would do the israelis a world of good.

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 03:18 PM

Jushua,

Bino’s run on sentence has you confused. I doubt he takes issue with your statement.

I, on the other hand, do. For one, ending Isreali hegemony in the region is not the same as “exterminating Israel”. That would be equivalent to saying that Iraqi’s are intent on exterminating the US or that Iran is intent on exterminating the US, or that Venezuela is intent on exterminating the US (I could go on and on). My point is, trying to get someone out of your back yard is not the same as exterminating them.

The old Zionist ploy of equating ANYTHING against Israel to “extermination” is rearing its ugly head. I would suggest that Hezb’s aim could be to exterminate the racist, oppressive, immoral zionist leaders. But that is not the same as “exterminating Israel”.

Statements like yours belie the fact that jews and muslims have lived in harmony for the best part of 1400yrs. There is no solid evidence to prove that would not be the case if the zionist expansionist sadistic regime was not in power.

Posted by guesswho at August 17, 2006 03:24 PM

From:

http://www.nkuk.org/

An Open Letter
A Salam Aleikem
To all our friends and acquaintances:

Recently some Zionists have taken a new tactic in their war against Judaism and their falsification of the Torah which prompts us to write this letter.

We have become aware that letters bearing the name of our organization, “Neturei Karta”, and my name, “Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss”, have been sent to our friends and their organizations stating falsely that we have changed our Torah view. We wish to reassure you that with G-d’s help, we remain true to the Torah and pray to G-d that we will always be true and loyal to G-d and His Torah. We will never recognize the state of “Israel” and will always stand in opposition to Zionism and the State of “Israel” and all that emanates from it and its affiliates.

Should you receive any letters purporting to be sent by myself or Neturei Karta which do not contain my original signature (not a copy) or that seem suspect, please disregard their content and be so kind as to contact us immediately.

Thanking you kindly in advance,
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
22 May 2005

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 03:25 PM

Again, the focus is on some minor word usage and not the point of my entire comment.

I am routing for peace, fairness, and a chance at life for all peoples everywhere. The Lebanese have suffered so much so fast for nothing. The Israeli governemnt and Hezbullah are war criminals and guilty of crimes against humanity by anybody’s standards; as are all manufacturers and dealers of weapons.

Only the younger generations will be able to break this cycle of violence- they need to be freed from the overwhelming propaganda of their shameful governments. Nations like Canada need to play a greater role in advocating for a stronger more responsible UN; we need to re structure the security council; Canadians need to put a halt to the drastic swing in foreign policy that is taking place and are disgusting realigning with the US.

We need to start condemning any group that uses violence to an end. The world cannot sustain much more. The suffering it is causing is catastrophic. The commonality between civilian poulations must be reinforced and with clear mutual understandings that all of us are losing to the violent malicious whims of a very few, albeit powerful, people.

Most people want a healthy livelihood, religious freedom, clean water and see their children go to school and be happy; thats it. We all have this in common: Israelis and Palestinians alike.

We should be doing so much more… and forgetting the past. The chain of propaganda towards each successive generation is a gross robbery of a childs chance at happiness. The hatred bred into children combined with the ugly manipulation that such a child is fighting/dieing for something tangible is the ultimate crime.

We do it here in Canada on some levels as well.

People in this forum seem to argue about who is right/wrong or won/lost.

There are no solutions in racial slurs. Only in finding the commonalities that bind us together and understanding/empathizing with the struggles/hardships The People face.

There are small movements in Isareal and Palestine to overcome the stranglehold violent persons have on the people; they just dont have support and face so much criticism by masses of people under such manipulation.

Candadians need to wake up and take control of their government as well. New international coalitions need to be made; Cuba and Venezuela is a good start. People need to stand up and support politicians that stand for something.

All nations have a common interest in seeing that this ever shrinking world survives such dark times and eventually casts off the demonstrative weight of Imperialism supported by institutions such as the World Bank and IMF; the trans national coorpation must be deconstructed and built up again by transnational CO-OPs.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 03:41 PM

Thank you guesswho,

That makes a lot of sense. I wonder though, if Hezbullah would be content with achieving the objectives you suggested? They are made of people who have been taught to hate Israel and I doubt very much that if the Middle East turned into peas and carrots, they would simply stop. They are, for all purposes, a revolutionry group- a guerrilla force with a central and, arguably, independent command. Would they stop after achieving ‘reasonable’ objectives? I know this is speculation and I do not think you are wrong, but I wonder. Thank you for posting a challenging and intelligent response.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 03:50 PM

Joshua:

I think you mistook me “Oldfan” for Bino.

It is I oldfan, who took issue with your assertion that Hizboullah is out to exterminate israel and Bino was re-asserting your claim.

Please, I ask again, can you validate your claim or assertion with any documentation from anywhere if any official of Hizboulllah has put forth this idea?

Is it, your personal feeling, that israel faces an existential threat, that you are expressing, or is it, what has been inculcated in you by your environment, socialization, programming etc.

Please go back and re-read my post to you about the origins of Hizboullah.

Remove the root causes of injustice and the opposition to it dissipates, the Shias of Lebanon were not in confrontation with israel until 1982.

Today, israel has no right to Shebaa farms and yet they occupy it, how can you question the motives and intent of Hizboullah, when it is israel that is occupying by force Lebanese territory.

Then, again, your programming kicks in when you say referring to Hizboullah:

“They are made of people who have been taught to hate Israel”

Did you, or have you paid any attention to what you just said, “hate israel”.

In the past few days have you not been a witness to the carnage that israel has inflicted on Lebanon, have you not seen the bodies of children ripped apart from limb to limb.

And you say that “ people have been taught to hate israel”, tell me my friend what would you do if your child, your family was to undergo such trauma, would you not have seething hatred towards those that destroyed everything you possess.

Answer yourself honestly; this is what I meant in my previous post when I wrote

“But truth has to begin within ourselves and we must be ever so vigilant to nurture it, if we are to do justice to our fellow beings”.

The Palestinians have been enduring this harsh reality that israel inflicts, which you saw in the last month, since 1948, when they were driven out of their homes.

The zionist terrorist gangs such as the Stern gang and others wreaked havoc in both Palestinian Christian and Muslim villages and communities by massacring men, children and even pregnant women.
The bodies of these massacred were left in the streets to rot as a warning to others to flee their homes.
Ethnic cleansing was the order of the day and that is how israel was created.

Hate for israel was not taught Johsua, it was a result of the injustices perpetrated by the zionist founding fathers of israel.

Don’t believe me! then go and search for the truth yourself, the world is at your fingertips. Seek the reasons for the hatred you feel directed towards yourself, as you are emotionally vested with the cause of israel.

If the truth sets you free, then you will sever your allegiance with this criminal entity called israel.

Posted by oldfan at August 17, 2006 06:09 PM

Joshua,

While it may seem plainly apparent that “everybody” wants healthy livelihood, religious freedom and a clean environment – that’s not actually the case at all.

These types of people fall into a few categories:

1) The Moral Imposer: This person carries out the wishes of God here on Earth. They’re the ones always telling other people how to live their lives. This most common form of citizen-tyrant can be found at gatherings where men wear neckties socially. Epitome of this category: Rush Limbaugh. Favorite Slogan: “You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with God.”

2) The Perennial Loser: This troublemaker is unique in that he doesn’t care that he has nothing, as long as everyone else also has nothing. This form of loser was forged in communist and socialist fires. They’re always taking away from the ‘haves’ but they never actually get around giving to the ‘have nots’. Epitome of this category: Your nosy neighbor who complains every time you throw a party. Not because he wasn’t invited, but he doesn’t like to see anyone having fun.

3) The Higher Citizen: This person’s driving force is that they’re convinced of their own superiority over others. The fully believe that everyone should obey the law – except of course they don’t have to obey the law. The fully believe in freedom of speech – unless you’re disagreeing with him. They all, tro a fault, believe themselves to be perfect. Defining characteristic: hypocrisy. Epitome of this category: Every small business owner.

4) The Outsider: This person positions themselves just outside whatever topic is being discussed. This allows them to claim to be all-knowing but still deny any and all responsibilities. They never vote or pick sides in anything, believing that unequivocal neutrality is the highest state of consciousness. Don’t bother trying to explain Dante’s feelings about those who claim neutrality. Favorite expression: “Hey, don’t blame me, I didn’t vote for the guy”. Epitome of this category: the unemployed 25-year-old freak with forty facial piercings, hair that looks like a bag of fall leaves and a hand-written sign asking for handouts because no one will give him a job.

5) The Wanker: This balloon-head spends way too much time posting in Internet chat rooms; categorizing their pontifications, proselytizing perennial pundits with a minutia of mundanities. Defining characteristic: they know how to work the thesaurus function. Epitome of this category: (can’t think of one right now!)

Posted by D. Canuck at August 17, 2006 06:41 PM

Oldfan,

I do not support the cause of Israel nor do I support the cause of Hizboulla.

Israel itself is a problem precisely because of the history you refer tois and, yes, they- state run institutions, not all Israelis- have committed and do commit serious atrocities.

Of course, I might hate after being so wronged, but I might also resist the urge to hate as many palestinians and Israelis try to do everyday; however, I doubt I am as courageous. Some individuals and groups work to build bridges admist brutal polarization between them.

By ‘taught to hate’ I am referring to the recruitment process of soldiers.

As I said before I found myself feeling generally agreeable towards the success of Hizboulla, but this feeling is primal and born out of frustration. Nothing good can come from any violence.

As for my programming: I have my own ideas and I am critical of what I read or see. I do not pretend to know anything for certain and I am open to change my mind.

I rarely agree with anyone 100%.

Hizboulla is inspiring for sure, but I do not believe that their victory or success outweighs the cost of what they and Israel (the US) have accomlished together over the past several weeks: Death and Misery for thousands.

I do not hate myself; I quite like who I am and what I am becoming; when I dont, I will change.

I invest my emotions in my family and the human cause- a world without violence.

Israel is there and it is composed of people; people who are deserving of compassion as do the fighters of Hizboulah. I condemn their tactics, but empathize with their struggle. I am sorry, I am not articulate enough to convey the complexity of my views in this forum as I am limited in time and energy, but I think I have been clear in my sentiments and phiosophy in regards to this topic.

Moreover, when one group has wronged another overr generations and the second group continues to seek retribution, what is the solution?

Are Israeli children born today condemned for the actions of their ancestors and must they grow up seeking to distribute further vengence and violence on their neighbours?

Should all Germans born today be punished for the holocaust?

Will all Americans born today be punished for Hiroshima, Nicoragua, El Salvador, the Phillipines, Indigenous peoples?

We do not need to forget these marks of violence nor should we, but continuing to keep score and telling the new generation that they are destined to claim their blood on behalf of their people is shameful; I am talking about all sides.

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 06:51 PM

D. Canuck,

That was good; Cheers

Posted by Joshua at August 17, 2006 06:54 PM

Oldfan:

Re: “It is I oldfan, who took issue with your assertion that Hizboullah is out to exterminate israel and Bino was re-asserting your claim.
Please, I ask again, can you validate your claim or assertion with any documentation from anywhere if any official of Hizboulllah has put forth this idea?”

Nasrallah: “Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions, and there is no chance for its survival.”

Nasrallah: “There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel.”

In an interview with the Washington Post, Nasrallah said “I am against any reconciliation with Israel. I do not even recognize the presence of a state that is called “Israel.” I consider its presence both unjust and unlawful. That is why if Lebanon concludes a peace agreement with Israel and brings that accord to the Parliament our deputies will reject it; Hezbollah refuses any conciliation with Israel in principle.”

Nasrallah: “If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide”

There quotes, and more, are all readily available for you to google.

Posted by Bino at August 17, 2006 08:12 PM

I believe that, in another thread, I explicitly said that yes I do believe that Hezbollah or Hamas or Al-Qaeda want to wipe off Israel from the political map. And I believe that’s true. But again, as I reiterated previously, it is not the same as killing jews, which I’m all against.

But I am not against, as many of you can concurr and think the same, that it would be in everyone’s best interest that Isreal disappears as a state in a political sense. We need a restructuration of the Middle East as the stupid US governement has said, but not a revamp around Syria, Lebanon, Irak or Iran but inside Isreal. That apartheid state has to be destroyed or remodeled so that injsutice and wars can be stpped.

Posted by theking01 at August 17, 2006 08:34 PM

In my first post a few days ago, I was schooled by chatman and D. Canuck that I shouldn’t be critical of the meaningless posts of others; that I should try to learn from them. Fair enough – if there was something meaningful to learn. But the more I view this group, the more I see the rabid intolerance that exists among the binos, oldfans, ramparts and ghawleys (and they seem to completely dominate this group to the exclusion of most others) so much so that I really wonder just what it is everyone is really learning, other than more intolerance. I suspect it is more a dialogue of the deaf – each trumpeting out their misguided logic without a care as to who is listening, if anyone.

It seems to me that this whole forum has dumbed down to more of a rant than a discussion. It is open to a whole lot of childish and extremist views that bear very little resemblance to reality. I appreciate the efforts of joshua, tovy, D. Canuck and a few others to try to put some meaningful discussion issues on the table, but they are more than drowned out by the intolerant, rather narcissistic rants of bino and others. Maybe it is all a strategy – the most vocal among us will win the day (hardly reality). More likely those who have the most to offer will quit this group and seek forums that permit a more rational, intelligent discussion of the issues. And, despite the black/white views of the binos, oldfans, ramparts, ghawleys, etc., who seem intent only on playing to each other ad nauseum, the issues here are not as simple as they seem to think, yet they are important because they point the way to our future.

My first post referred to a sandbox, my metaphor for the silly war that is currently in denouement. It is an equally apt metaphor for this forum, both arenas seemingly run by children. I’m pretty sure Eric doesn’t even bother to read the drivel that is posted here, nor does he expect to learn much from it. Pity.

Posted by adelhard at August 17, 2006 08:43 PM

adelhard, why don’t you put yourself out there and share information and your beliefs rather than chatising those who see a path to peace by identifying the obstacles, which are pretty much all Israeli. Bino has lowered the quality of this post and I for one don’t mind telling him to unplug his head frm his ass.

I repeat my link here for some additional insight from a Jew living in Israel:

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0274.htm#Top

The Israeli-Arab conflict would end. as many of those knowledgeable of the issues have stated, if Israel was to adhere to UN Resolutions. Funny the Arab countries must obey them but not Israel… Please explain.

The diaspora Jews have an understandable emotional connection to Israel and take their lead from domestic Israeli policies, whether they be unjust and sadistic or otherwise. Thus if Israel doves take control of domestic policy, then the Binos would fall in line. The conflict, the injustice, is a matter of land for peace.

Israel is sowing the seeds of its own moral and political destruction through its obstinence and cruelty. This renegade state is acting in an outrageous fashion, kidnapping Hamas elected officials and tossg them into their gulag prison system. Along with some 9000 women and children (plus the men) who are subject to the vagaries of sadistic zionist sicko jailers.

So I suggest, adelhard, that your preaching rings hollow as measured against the horror being imposed on the innocents. This war is, as past wars have been, caused by the Israeli settler mentality (fundamentalist insanity) that discounts the ruining of lives by coveting others’ property.

Speaking of the moral high ground, isn’t coveting others’ property against Moses’ Commandments, along with Thou shalt not kill, etc. atc. Where is your moral indignation?! The zionist fundamentalists are nationalists who conveniently ignore those parts of the Torah. They are stinking up your religion and the whole mideast.

Israel, as a rascist state, deserves to be dismantled and reassembled as a truly democratic and pluralist society that doesn’t place religion ahead of human decency. If it wants to be an exclusive Jewish state or a homeland for the Jews, then obey teh UN Resolution 242 and provide meaningful compensation to those driven out of that part of Palestine. But let’s not speak the truth for fear of offending someone.

Posted by ghawley at August 17, 2006 10:26 PM

ghawley,it is too easy to say that Israel is the sole source of all the problems. Or to label Israel as a terrorist organization of the same ilk as Hezbollah. And that is part of the problem with this group and with the political entities that are trying to find a way out of this mess. You all seem to see things in black and white as if your view of things is the only way. And quoting a bunch of stuff written by others who have political or other axes to grind doesn’t mean much in the end result. Many of these problems began long before Israel was formed and continue to today. The way Israel was formed back in 1948 has not helped the situation, either. Also, the attitude many Israelis have taken towards the Palestinians in terms of their treatment towards them, the supporting of settlements on their land and the constant incursions into Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon over many years has contributed extensively to the current situation.

That does not excuse the actions of Palestinian and Hezbollah ‘resistance groups’ which have unfortunately engaged in a number of terrorist actions involving the unnecessary killing of innocent civilians over the years (Israel’s targeting of cibvilians this time around was an misguided strategy, but there is a context here that cannot just be passed over). There is no doubt that Hezbollah and its sponsors have a ‘destroy Israel’ element to their foreign policies and these just further contribute to the problem. So, the