Finally…. LOL
The last few comments from the previous piece are connected to this topic….
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 09:41 AM
i don’t agree that Pakistani’s are necessarily feeling down in the dumps. to the contrary. the sacking of the chief justice has energized a large part of the nation and invigorated important democratic institutions. for the first time in a while, there is a possibility that democracy will be ensured.
the truth of the matter is that the US cannot really do anything about al-Qaeda without the help of the Pakistan army. and no army officer will last very long if they act against militants any more than Musharraf already has. this is the best the US is gonna get. the Army isn’t stupid. they know they will be abandoned by the US regardless once they leave afghanistan. so why bother doing Americas bidding at the expense of their own country.
even if democracy returns to Pakistan, the ARMY will still be the ones doing any of the fighting. so they will require military aid if the US wants them to do anything.
the best situation that could emerge is if democracy would return to Pakistan, with BB the crook and Nawaz the illiterate still in exile. the mullahs would be marginalized, the US would need to give Pakistan aid so that the democratic leader can brag about economic growth similar to that which Musharraf brought. otherwise the voters will throw them out as well. finally the US would need to buy-off the Army with weapons to continue their fight against al-qaeda.
Posted by fahdp at March 22, 2007 09:57 AM
I am down in the dumps actually, but it has nothing to do with whatever Eric thinks. I’m depressed about Bob Woolmer dying like that.
I think I’ll be out of the dumps in a few days. LOL
If getting into nuclear deal with the US gives India confidence, great. We know from experience that “if there is anything worse than being America’s enemy, it’s being America’s friend” (Kissenger?)
Their turn now. Good luck.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 10:17 AM
This is one of those discussions zionist Bingo is going to stay out of. It is not his area of interest, unless he finds a way to personally attack someone and derail the discussion. He is violently cursing Eric right now for not writing about EYE-ran, Israel or EYE-Raq. If the topic had been about EYE-ran or Israel, he would have been the first person to post a message.
Posted by hedagem at March 22, 2007 11:53 AM
fahdp there isnt a lot of american stuff in the pakistani military nowadays.
most of it is chinese or european.
Posted by _RealityBites_ at March 22, 2007 12:42 PM
You rang, hedagem?
Eric once again shows how little he actually cares for the people of Afghanistan with his usual dismissals, this time calling it “aimless”. I’d say a country that went from barbaric, fundamentalist, misogynistic rule to electing it’s government, sending girls back to school and no longer giving AQ free reign is far from “aimless”. But that’s just me.
If there were more countries with my mindset and fewer with Eric’s, the world - or at least Afghanistan - just might be a better place.
Posted by Bino at March 22, 2007 02:50 PM
What happened to that Spruance class warship they gave us for free… “Fletcher” wasn’t it?
Plus the largest ever order for BVR missiles. And then the F-16s. Upgraded C-130s. Upgraded Orions. Choppers. C-Nite upgrades. Anything else American?
Reality is right… This is nothing compared to the other good stuff we make ourselves or procure from elsewhere… I don’t see why we don’t tell the Americans to take their junk and shove it? It isn’t like we need it any more. Good to have, sure, but not indispensable.
The best thing that can happen to Pakistan is for Amreeka to put sanctions on us again so that we can’t buy their military stuff anymore and I think Pakistan is going in the right direction by letting America be pissed at us. It is about time Americans realize that the sun doesn’t rise and set in their ass. And I think that message is slowly sinking in.
Let India buy American. LOL.
On the other hand, the real power in the US is not the Govt… it is Lockheed. When Lockheed or Raytheon bark… the President obeys. So we buy their stuff. Short-cut to power.
I can’t decide which direction would be better. There are merits in both.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 03:02 PM
Reality:
Is the 23rd march parade on?
I understand we’ll see the JF-17 flying? I will try and capture the video and upload it. I hope.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 03:28 PM
Questioner:
I would argue there’s some American hardware that would be envy of any of the world’s military forces. F-22s are some of the finest craft in the air, with something like a 100 to 1 kill ratio against American F-15’s. Coupled with decent AAMs (AMRAAMs) and comprehensive AWACs solutions, and I can’t think of many air forces that could challenge them… yet.
Some of the older Russian stuff is good (Flankers and Fulcrums with updated avionics; far less expensive too…), but you can’t really argue against the quality of the F-22 or F-35, given the technology and development costs.
Of course, due to national security restrictions, I can’t imagine that equipment will find its way into foreign air forces any time soon. And I would tend to agree that F-16Cs are not really the kind of weapons that are worth bending over backwards for. An Su-27 or a MiG-29 is a match for an F-16 any day, particularly if the avionics are updated to take advantage of modern AWACs tech.
The reasons the Americans are friendly with India is because Indians, in general, like America, its products, and its culture. There also happen to be over a billion Indians, many of whom either have ties to America, or have enough money to create business or offer operating solutions for American companies. While I have no doubt there is a strategic angle in American intermeddling, the Indians are notoriously prickly about issues of sovereignty and self-determination.
The other reason, and this is something I’m sure Eric has noticed, is that Indian infrastructure and commercial development is occurring at a breakneck pace. This is in no large part due to the fact that Indian governments have not served its people or the region well in the last half century. It remains to be seen whether the looming environmental catastrophe fomented by combined Indian and Chinese growth will ultimately be better for the country. I remember only a few years ago when I would visit the Indian countryside and get mangoes or date molasses from the trees, or enjoy air unpolluted by notorious urban smog. Unfortunately, nowadays, the only product of those lands are belching coal smoke from sponge iron factories; the air is cleaner in Kolkata than it is in the outlands hundreds of miles away.
Posted by chatman at March 22, 2007 05:38 PM
Hedagem:
It never ceases to amaze me how obtuse you are. You entreat others to ignore “Zionist Bingo,” yet are unable to follow your own advice. Eric posts an interesting article, and all you can talk about is “Zionist Bingo.” One might think you’re a more than a little obsessed with the person you would like the rest of us to forget.
Posted by chatman at March 22, 2007 05:40 PM
Chatman:
The F-22 costs what… more than $100 million apiece? How many will the USAF buy?
What happens if you lose a stealth bomber? $2 billion gone in one shot?
America has always won it’s wars because of superior numbers… not because of superior tech (though they are superior, no doubt).
For example…
Now tomorrow we will see the our own plane, JF-17 fly. It is better than the original F-16, but only about 80% as good as the new F-16s. It doesn’t matter. Since we are going to make the plane ourselves, we can overwhelm by numbers… far far outmatching the F-22. There are ways and means to more than even out the odds. For example the JF-17 is designed from the ground up for BVR warfare. And future versions will have thrust vectoring.
—-MiG-29 is a match for an F-16——
Guess what engine the JF-17 carries? Mig-29 engine (updated version), LOL
Point is, 3 times cheaper and only 80% as good, is far better in my opinion than wasting money on new American weapons which might come with strings attached.
We really can do without American weaponry if we have to.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 06:16 PM
—-the Indians are notoriously prickly about issues of sovereignty and self-determination.——
Like I said… good luck.
Saying so isn’t sticking in my throat because I’m sure India will see for itself what kind of a snake they are dealing with. You just have to experience it first hand.
I am 200% sure.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 06:22 PM
Chatman:
About your raptors…
http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6225
For $100 million apiece, this is a real neat way for a plane to go KAPUT.
I will give you a gun lover’s example…. (me pathan.. me like gun)
This is again like the Kalashnikov vs M-16. The M-16 is a better rifle.. no doubt about that. But the Kalashnikov beat the crap out of it. I leave you to ask yourself why.
Same with the F-22.
Posted by The Questioner at March 22, 2007 06:33 PM
Well, numerical superiority is one thing, but a 108 to 1 kill ratio is a pretty good argument supporting overwhelming technological superiority. Granted, this was in separate engagements (F-22’s carry only 6-8 missiles), but you have to admit, Lockheed Martin got a lot of things right with the final incarnation of this creature. I got a chance to see one (along with several other aircraft) at a recent airshow, and these things are amazing… from design to flight avionics and cockpit ergonomics, these aircraft truly are stunning.
Interesting link; clearly there are some problems that need to be worked out. The article misquotes the price though; these things $330 million apiece, and I think Congress has authorized 75 fighters. We may sell a few to Japan with watered down avionics. They are scary weapons, and the Chinese and Koreans are both worried that the Japanese Air Defense forces may be getting their hands on them.
The figher is pre-designed for AWACs based BVR warfare, and it’s high cruising speeds (Mach 1.5, with a classified ≥ Mach 2.5 speed with afterburners on) and gigantic engines give it ample energy advantage over just about any other aircraft when engaging in air-to-air combat. That, and the radar profile is almost zero given special coatings, airframe design, and internal weapons bays. Hence, it works well in conjunction with an AWACs regime and active radar AAM’s; so long as it never has to turn on its radar, the F-22 is effectively invisible BVR.
They are neat toys to be sure, but I think the discussion of their absolute superiority to just about anything out there is largely academic. I am not a big fan of exotic force multipliers like the F-22, because it puts the focus in the wrong place; sexy weapons designed for limited uses. At this point, U.S forces are able to gain air superiority in any theater we care to fight in. We generally won’t fight the kinds of adversaries that could challenge our carrier based F-18 Super-Hornets, so a land based F-22 is exotic overkill.
The F-35 will be a much more important aircraft for the American portfolio, and the portfolio of its allies. With relatively impressive combat and stealth characteristics wrapped into a lower cost, VTOL capable package. I could see the Americans selling those to India and other markets where the F-22 would not be cleared for sale. The F-35 is a formidable aircraft in its own right; I don’t put much stock in CF-17s, or even the new Sukhoi bureau aircraft (Su-33 and Su-37) in being able to compete either the F-22 or the F-35 on a one-to-one or even a three-to-one ratio.
Despite the advantages, however, I would agree that buying American arms nowadays is a dangerous idea for long term defense, since it is tough to get licensing agreements to build the machines locally, and you are always dependent on American suppliers for parts and expertise. Better to license Russian goods, and just buy or build more of them.
Nonetheless, if India really is interested in a long term strategic alliance with the Americans, I am sure they would be quite pleased to add, in addition to a steady supply of nuclear fuel, a squadron of F-35’s to their air and sea-air arms. I have my doubts that a JC/FC-17 or even an F-16C would be a very good adversary to the IAF under those circumstances. Of course, given that it IS the IAF, they probably won’t buy any trainers, and will end up crashing half of them into the ground even as they thump their chests, claiming to be a “regional superpower.”
Oh, and as for the AK-47 v. M-16 analogy, the comparison between an infrantryman’s assault rifle and a high performance fighter aircraft is not particularly instructive. Modern fighter aircraft are flown and maintained by highly trained and specialized flight crews. By contrast, every dumb grunt in the army has to use an M-16 (or, if it’s a dumb grunt in Indian or Pakistani armies, the Kalashnikov); the scope for introducing conditions that cause an assault rifle to fail is far more likely when everyone in the service must use one in the harshest of combat conditions. By comparison, F-22 squadrons would be specially trained to handle their expensive charges at air bases far from the rigors of a combat zone.
You could be right though; our Apache and Cobra gunships have proven to be next to useless in combat due to the degree of maintenance they demand; however, I’m not convinced the same will be true of the F-22 project.
Posted by chatman at March 22, 2007 07:09 PM
Chatman, I’ll answer you better in a little while…
To everyone from Pakistan (and elsewhere). In case you missed it, here is a video grab I just uploaded to YouTube.
First flypast of the JF-17.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T77HHD1W7HA
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 04:01 AM
Here is another video of when they were making this plane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzQw0V9pbhQ&mode=related&search=
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 04:03 AM
I also uploaded “Nukular” (as Chimpy would say) missiles on display:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoI6vZLv3Mo
My Rs.2000 TV device works!
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 08:31 AM
Chatman:
A few comments:
We don’t use Kalashnikov’s btw. But the analogy is valid even for planes. More things to go wrong and all that.
For example… that $2 Billion black elephant, otherwise known as “stealth bomber” needs an airconditioned hanger and extra care needs to be taken not to get it wet (or bye bye stealth)…
So the Raptor costs $330 million??? That is even worse than I thought. What on earth are you expected to do with 75 planes? $25 Billion for 75 planes? If I was “the decider” (LOL) I would use that $25 billion for asymmetric warfare… you know… the philosophy that has turned carriers into sitting ducks.
You know those body-heat/movement sensors? People think you can’t get past them? Well, get 5, 10, rupees worth of soapy foam, spray it on the damn thing (or cover yourself with foam), and you’re invisible. Sensor defeated. This is asymmetric warfare.
You can have a terrific weapon for $330 million, no doubt. But really… one can do a lot better things with that money. One can set off nukes in the ionosphere.. the EMP will make this flying computer fall out of the sky. No, there is a limit to how much you can “harden” digital electronics against EMP… only analogue computers have a chance… and as far as I know, the Raptor doesn’t have analogue computers on board (old style valves.. LOL).
However, the plane that is the real threat is the other one you mentioned…F-35. You can have it quantity and it is quite a remarkable aircraft.
About the JF-17… it is only our first effort in making a serious fighter aircraft that will replace the F-16. For a first effort, it is unbelievably good. New versions will be introduced.
You know what’s next? It’ll knock your socks off, LOL. But I ain’t telling.
The point is, no country ever won a serious war by using equipment bought from someone else. You only have a chance if you can make your own stuff. And we can …this is more than India has done, btw… where is LCA?. What happened to the Indian tank project.. Arjun? (we make our own).
Everything India can do… we have shown we can match and over-take. We can and have even put a big dent into American options (whatever options they imagined they had). Hence the bad mood in Washington.
Our economy is smaller… that too will be taken care of I’m sure.
It is all good.
————You could be right though; our Apache and Cobra gunships have proven to be next to useless in combat due to the degree of maintenance they demand; however, I’m not convinced the same will be true of the F-22 project.—————
And I bet this will be another V-22 Osprey.
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 09:06 AM
Former navy chief said that for $3 Billion, Pakistan can make 3 nuclear powered submarines.
That is $3 billion… to get nuclear propulsion technology and for research and mistakes etc. But we will have a nuclear boat or two if we really push it. I am just saying how far a few billion can go.
Point is, I don’t think anyone (India too) would be stupid enough to waste billions of dollars on a few planes, no matter how good, when they can use that money produce their own stuff.
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 09:36 AM
Here is our contribution to Chinese world domination:
http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/news/stories/s1877453.htm
http://www.dailyindia.com/show/127831.php/Gwadar-Port-set-to-become-key-Pak-and-global-strategic-hub
Posted by The Questioner at March 23, 2007 10:35 AM
Questioner, your Panglossian optimism about Pakistan, even after the kite festival carnage and Bob Woolmer’s murder, never ceases to amaze me.
Bino, you desperately need to get acquainted with Hobbes and Thucydides, and come to the realization that civil war and anarchy are generally worse than authoritarian government.
Posted by hyperbolus at March 24, 2007 07:08 PM
Hyperbolus:
——Questioner, your Panglossian optimism about Pakistan, even after the kite festival carnage and Bob Woolmer’s murder, never ceases to amaze me.——-
That is because what you might read on the news is like looking through a magnifying lens…a tunnel vision effect. It doesn’t have much to do with real life.
Only simpletons would extrapolate and draw broader conclusions.
There was no “kite carnage” as far as I could see, for example.
Woolmer’s murder is under investigation. We all know who is responsible (the famous Bombay-Dubai mafia).
There is far more bad news on the internet everyday about daily life in the US, for example. People dying.. killing each other over the most bizarre reasons… yet, we all know THAT isn’t real-life. That is just “news”. Life goes on and goes on pretty well.
Same here.
Posted by The Questioner at March 25, 2007 12:28 AM
In other words…
Since I live here I know exactly what matters (what will effect me for real) and what is just going to blow over in a few days.
I see weird stuff that doesn’t make it to the news all the time… it is normal… when you are half the size of the US (pop size), you get quite a large collection of arseholes… and arseholes will do what arseholes always do.
For example, my neighbor’s kid rolls his own firecrackers. They really go BOOM. One day he will kill himself. I will be happy about it.
Meanwhile I don’t hide under my bed. Just put some cotton in my ears every day around 17:00. LOL
However my other neighbors dog (BIG dog.. german sheppard) does not put cotton it his ears. He gets real nasty when their is a bang.
Just the other day I was taking a walk and Doggy was going back home after taking a shit in somebody else’s lawn… and there was a BANG. Doggy doesn’t like it and it runs towards me (for protection?) at warp speed.
I don’t want dogs running after me, so I climbed up a wall (superior karate trained reflexes) and jumped into someone else’s home (it is ok… they know me… well now they do).
That stupid kid (and others like him) and the stupid dog (and other like him) will not bring down The Atomic Republic of Pakistan. No Sir!!! Not in a million years!!! hahahahahahaha
Posted by The Questioner at March 25, 2007 12:44 AM
It’s “Mountbatten-III”… the dog’s name, in case you were wondering. (Mountbatten-I got squished in traffic, Mountbatten-II ran off never to be seen again).
He likes to be called “Monty”.
Posted by The Questioner at March 25, 2007 01:24 AM
all the military goodies on earth cant help you if you dont have the national resolve to fight a long drawn out guerrilla war.
case in point Iraq and one day soon afghanistan
theres nothing america can do in either case.
how long can you prop up stooges who aren’t supported by the people?
Bino’s comments are a very high flying view for someone who doesnt know the demographics or what is actually happening on the ground.
how many people do actually support the afghan “elected” govt? why do they need the US forces there if afghanistan is actually a democracy?? couldnt a well armed local population or govt handle the talibs by themselves?
in a boxing match or war, the loser is the person who gives up and goes home first. the US is fighting for reasons, unclear to even themselves.
Pakistan doesnt need pricey aircrafts. we need the money elsewhere. we dont need to overwhelm anyone by numbers. we just need to ensure that whoever attacks us is mortally wounded. and that would be the case even if our army had only small arms.
CM, india isnt that big a US fan either. I dont see india purchasing alot of US armament at this point. wise move in my opinion. a runaway bloated army isnt a blessing, its a curse.
Posted by _RealityBites_ at March 25, 2007 02:35 PM
RealityBites:
“Bino’s comments are a very high flying view for someone who doesnt know the demographics or what is actually happening on the ground. how many people do actually support the afghan “elected” govt? “
The majority, dumbass.
Are you not even aware that Karzai has an approval rating most Western leaders envy?
And you claim I have no clue?
Here is a summary: The U.S.-led invasion remains highly popular, the Taliban intensely unpopular, and the current Afghan government retains broad support.
Is it all golden? Of course not. Thanks to defeatist turds like yourself and laughable nations too yellow to make a difference it might not even make it. Forgive me for having a shred of hope that not every country on Earth is indifferent to the suffering of millions of Afhanis.
This poll is 3 months old, and I hope you choke on it, sunshine:
http://abcnews.go.com/images/politics/afghanistan_poll_061205.pdf
Does it change your opinion at all? Notice how the majority not only strongly prefer the elected government to Taliban rule, but they also want international forces to stay and help rebuild. You don’t care though. Admit it. You’re callous and don’t give a turd for them.
Just keep on bleating, OK? “AmeriKKKa = baaaaaaaad.” Good boy. You’re a real humanitarian.
“why do they need the US forces there if afghanistan is actually a democracy?? couldnt a well armed local population or govt handle the talibs by themselves?”
That is so laughably obtuse I’m giggling at my desk. You can’t possibly be this dim. Oh wait, yes, you can.
Anyhow, great post! Obviously, reality does bite for you, so you avoid it at all costs.
Posted by Bino at March 26, 2007 08:56 AM
Polls conducted by the invader…..
The jury shall disregard.
—————————————-
——Are you not even aware that Karzai has an approval rating most Western leaders envy?
And you claim I have no clue?———-
You really have no clue.
Every Afghan …. every last one of them …. will shoot Karzai, given the chance.
As we run across these Afghans everyday… and feel their anger… we have a better assessment of the situation than your tired American-British sponsored polls you like to peddle now and then.
After all, there are:
1. Lies
2. Damned Lies.
3. and Statistics.
Posted by The Questioner at March 26, 2007 10:26 AM
—-millions of Afhanis.——-
Afhanis??? What on earth is an “afhani”?
After proclaiming all that concern for their well-being at least learn to spell their name properly, you dope.
Posted by The Questioner at March 26, 2007 10:44 AM
Actually, Clamfart, the poll was conducted with field work by the Afghan Center for Social and Opinion Research in Kabul. That’s an outfit that was created after the fall of the Taliban. There were no polls conducted under the Taliban. They weren’t much for opinions. Obviously, gauging what people think is important, unless you’re a slave in a theocratic, misogynistic nightmare. Thankfully, to me anyhow, that is no longer the case.
Now, I’m sure we’re all very impressed with your take baserd on the people you claim to speak with, but until you talk to a random national sample of 1,036 Afghan adults, you’re just a racist blowhard talking shit on the internet, reduced to pointing out typos while conveniently dismissing the numbers. Don’t worry – I’m sure RealityBites and hegadem are suitable impressed with your bullshit.
LOL.
Aren’t you tired of being pwned yet, my stinky little queef?
Bwahahahahaha!
Posted by Bino at March 26, 2007 01:22 PM
zionist neocon Bingo = internet message board masturbator whose ultimate fantasy is to come home from work and catch his wife (if he has one) in bed with four well-endowed Arabs. His keyboard is his sword and he only has two hobbies: jerking off while watching videos of police brutality and playing soccer with the decapitated heads of Palestinian babies. It is safe to assume that he pisses away half his life posting on 200 different political message boards.
Remember: all wars are justified. As long as they are started by the U.S. or Azzrael.
Posted by hedagem at March 27, 2007 10:09 PM
LOL!
Posted by Bino at March 27, 2007 10:11 PM
Bino:
I certainly don’t think you answered Reality’s posts with any measure of grace or even agreeable substance; I have a few critiques, but it seems like the time to air them is past.
I have to admit, though, that when it comes to bottom trawlers, few can match wits with Hedagem. His interactions with you are truly a case study in peculiarly obsessive internet behavior.
He seems obsessed with you.. he even marks the articles where you haven’t posted with the same recycled, yet puerile nonsense about the kinds of topics that “excite” you. If nothing else, he seems to waste more energy on you than you on him, and I suppose that’s an asymmetry to be proud of. :)
Posted by chatman at March 28, 2007 03:20 AM
You’re right of course, Chatman – I should have been more civil in my retort. I’m sure Eric will pen another article avoiding the subject of human rights in Afghanistan and hopefully you will give those critiques and we can have a nice, civil discussion.
Until then…Cheers!
Posted by Bino at March 28, 2007 10:00 AM
USA + Britain + Israel = Axis of Evil
Posted by hedagem at March 28, 2007 03:53 PM