China’s Manchu Emperors made the ancient city Shenyang (formerly Mukden) their imperial capitol. Today, the greater Shenyang region is one of China’s most important industrial centers.
The first chilly winds of the great Siberian winter are beginning to sweep down. Just to the east is North Korea’s sealed-off border. To the north is Harbin, the fabled refuge for White Russian aristocrats and Jewish refugees from Russia’s 1917 Revolution.
Few westerners come to Shenyang. It is a high security zone with many strategic industries that wreath this city of 7.5 million in a perpetual miasma of choking pollution and smog.
In 1905, Russia and Japan were locked in their climactic struggle to carve up the rotting corpse of the Chinese Empire. Russia was driving railroads south from Siberia into Manchuria and developing the important rail heads of Mukden and the key ice-free ports of Dalny and Port Arthur.
The two expanding powers waged an astoundingly bloody war here from 1904-05, including the epic siege of Port Arthur, that was a precursor of the oncoming horrors of WWI.
In the 1905 Battle of Mukden, 850,000 Russian and Japanese soldiers fought here along a 90-mile front that was the biggest battle in history involving western forces until 1914.
Russia lost nearly 200,000 casualties at Mukden, another 30,000 at Port Arthur, and was forced to abandon Manchuria and sue for peace. In 1944, the Red Army returned: it occupied Mukden and Port Arthur until 1948. During the Korean War, Manchuria served as rear base for Red Chinese armies fighting In Korea.
American Gen. Douglas MacArthur urged his superiors to use a dozen nuclear weapons against Shenyang and the nearby Yalu River crossings. President Harry Truman refused.
Half a century later, Manchuria remains the epicenter of Asian geostrategic tensions. Recent shifts in the regional power equation are undermining the status quo in force here since 1952.
Until recently, America’s Pacific military power, explicit US nuclear guarantees to Japan, and strong but less precise guarantees to South Korea and Taiwan, maintained the regional balance of power.
North Korea’s recent mini nuclear test upset this half century old balance, sparking demands in Japan, South Korea and Taiwan for their own nuclear forces.
Clumsy efforts by the Bush Administration to draw Japan into explicit guarantees of military support for Taiwan in the event of war with China have strained relations between Tokyo and Beijing. China’s enormous growth is forcing a rethink of all current security arrangements.
Russia, worried about the vulnerabilities of its thinly populated Pacific regions, is trying to draw Japan into its strategic orbit through huge oil and gas deals in Sakhalin and eastern Siberia. Moscow still sees Manchuria as essential to its Far East security. But lingering wartime disputes over the Kurile Islands, and deep mistrust, still cloud Russo-Japanese relations.
The advent of Japan’s new conservative prime Minster, Shinzo Abe, produced an immediate improvement of previously strained relations with Seoul and Beijing, and a tacit agreement to drop the sterile recriminations over WWII.
President George Bush’s lost wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and their mammoth costs, have already begun to undermine US power in Asia. North Korea is calling America a `paper tiger.’
This weakening of the North Pacific security system occurs just when a steady American hand is needed.
Washington and its Asian allies face the most serious and difficult strategic challenge of the past 50 years: managing China’s emergence as a regional and world power, while dealing with an assertive India, and declining American military power.
The North Asian powers all need to tap and share Siberia’s and Manchuria’s energy and water. They must prevent the implosion of starving but dangerous North Korea, which feels itself cornered.
The rebirth of Japanese militarism must also be curbed – particularly as right-wing Japanese groups clamor for nuclear weapons and reject any wartime guilt.
A regional nuclear weapons race could be likely unless diplomacy deals effectively with North Korea’s challenge. North Asia’s powers need to alleviate the deep historic mistrust that has plagued their relations.
Finally, North Asia’s powers must find some delicate way of easing the influence over North Asia of the no longer-all powerful USA without undermining the region’s security which America has so long assured.





Posted by Eric Margolis on November 6, 2006 08:13 AM
Comments:
Interesting article. By all appearances, China is going through the same industrial revolution problems faced by Europe in the mid-1800’s. Only their population is greater.
Given the history of North Asia, and the fact that the countries in the region are nuclear powers or nascent nuclear powers, this area could be a worse powder keg than the Middle East.
Posted by Weary at November 7, 2006 10:27 AM
If Amreeka gets it’s interfering butt out of there, while it still can with some grace…. there will be no powder keg.
Asians know who is who on the pecking order. We all know our place.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 10:37 AM
Please elaborate - who is who in the pecking order?
Posted by Bino at November 7, 2006 10:53 AM
That is for us to know.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 11:13 AM
It doesn’t seem that simple to me Rampart. China and Japan have been at war before, so have Russia and Japan. There is always considerable tension between India and China and between India and Pakistan. And, the Russians are European rather than Asian. Throw nuclear weapons in the mix and there could be an accident, even without U.S. meddling.
Posted by Weary at November 7, 2006 02:48 PM
Prognostication - Bhutan will be the next tense spot. It is a land-locked nation of 675,000 predominantly Buddhist souls, lying between China (aka occupied Tibet) and India. It’s major export is hydroelectricity, which means of course it has water, something nations afflicted by climate change will be aggressively seeking (watch out Canada!).
It is run by a monarchy and would be an easy pushover for China, especially as they know the uS public will not truck another war, even if the intervention is on the side of the angels. Remember, China took over Tibet just after WW2 when they calculated an exhausted US and European resistance would take the form of words, not actions. Thus emboldened by the Tibet success, Bhutan is a sitting duck for China. However, India will be unlikely to roll over so we can expect an India-China clash.
China is just beginning to flex its muscles and scooping Bhutan may well be a test run for other such adventures, possibly including Taiwan. China is playing the patience game, waiting to pounce when others spent their foreign adventure capital.
So in this sense, I think Eric is looking too much at Asia North rather than Asia High.
Posted by shazam at November 7, 2006 03:23 PM
“China is just beginning to flex its muscles and scooping Bhutan may well be a test run for other such adventures, possibly including Taiwan. China is playing the patience game, waiting to pounce when others spent their foreign adventure capital.”
They would be nuts; this is not 1962. The Indians have massive military installations in the foothills at Badogra, and at least a division’s worth of acclimatized soldiers between Darjeeling and Gangtok. The moment PRC troops even start massing near Bhutan, both Nepal and Bhutan would become willing Indian protectorates; no army, including China’s, would want to negotiate that terrain in an offensive action; aircraft are less useful, tanks are useless, it would take weeks just to acclimate your troops, and defenders would have substantial advantages (a.k.a Kargil) in the virtually impassible mountains. You should visit the Himalayan wall some time; the foothills alone are next to impossible to negotiate, and that’s with the roads in place.
The Chinese would not risk the political and economic fallout of such expansionism any more than the Indians would for Aksai Chin. Aside from strategic value against each other, neither territory has much intrinsic value; good economic relations between Asia’s two largest countries are much more valuable than sovereignty over a peaceful Buddhist kingdom. Both countries have military age males, and nuclear weapons, in spades. I somehow doubt either country wants to test the military resolve of the other.
The Chinese, I imagine, are more interested in wresting control over the Pacific and South China Sea from the U.S 7th Fleet; at this time, there is nothing that can challenge American naval supremacy, but the Chinese and Indians are both advancing the blue water capabilities of their forces so that they can project power in areas traditionally dominated by the U.S 7th and 6th fleets respectively.
That said, the 6th fleet alone carries half as many aircraft as the IAF. U.S power may be in decline on the ground, but at sea and in the air, few forces can challenge it… yet. It appears that the Americans are now prepared to fuel Japanese militarism by providing them with state-of-the-art F-22 aircraft and AWACS equipment to shift the balance of power in the Pacific rim. The spectre of revived Japanese miltarism represents a greater threat to the Chinese, I imagine, than any military threat posed by an economically interdependent India to the south.
Posted by chatman at November 7, 2006 05:52 PM
I don’t really understand Rampart’s comment. The U.S. doesn’t have much influence in that area anymore, other than S. Korea, and even that is pretty iffy. China is, by far, the dominant power in the region and it is letting everyone know that that is their area of interest, as we are seeing with the failure to create sanctions against North Korea. So there is very little “butt” to get out of there. He should stop trying to create an American dragon where none exists. His bias is far too obvious — it leaves no room for discussion.
Posted by restless at November 7, 2006 06:58 PM
You don’t understand?
OK… read Chatman’s last paragraph.
Now you understand?
THAT is what I called an “interfering butt”.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 10:48 PM
Weary:
My point was that… for example.. if Amreeka and Russia had been like India/Pakistan and had a common border… with missiles less than 5 minutes away…. with all the verbal and other abuse that we get all the time… with accusations of sponsoring “terror”….. they would have killed each other in the 60s.
The fact that India and Pakistan haven’t… it is because we’re Asians and our fingers aren’t glued to “Da Button”. People who eat rice are inherently non-violent.
Eric sez, Amreeka has assured security in the region for so long. I say, Amreeka has kept the pot boiling… just so… for so long.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 11:01 PM
“China is, by far, the dominant power in the region and it is letting everyone know that that is their area of interest, as we are seeing with the failure to create sanctions against North Korea.”
No, I don’t think so. With all the hype surrounding China, it’s easy to forget that, much like India, it is still basically a third world country; per capita GDP is a little more than twice that of India over 1.3 billion people. The Japanese, on the other hand, have a per capita GDP that is 6 times that of China’s, over about an eighth as many people. They have money and technology, and in a matter of weeks can become a major military force. They also have privileged status in U.S Defense Department circles, being considered among the closest of allies and having access to some of the best military technology in the planet. Through the Japanese and the 7th fleet, the Americans still wield a very potent means of projecting power in the Pacific Rim. Remember that the U.S 7th fleet might still perform a valuable deterrent function against China’s arguably legitimate interest in Taiwan.
The South Koreans are also a formidable economic power that allows the U.S military to base on their lands.
China knows where they stand today, and where they could be in the next 20 years. They aren’t stupid enough to pick fights with nations upon which they are economically interdependent; they also know that, if they bide their time, they are destined to BECOME the unchallenged power broker in East Asia. Wars in either the south or the east would be a drag on China’s booming economy, and would alienate the very economic partners that China needs to succeed. It would be politically and strategically foolish, and very much in conflict with China’s history, to foment wars to acquire lands they could just as easily influence through peaceful means.
They have spent the last quarter of a century rising through inward looking economic and social reform; without any act of real military conquest, they have become Asia’s next big star. Why waste the profits from these years of patient growth and development on pointless wars over Himalayan kingdoms or rogue island states? The Taiwanese at least, will find themselves tied to Beijing’s orbit soo enough, as China’s economic and cultural gravity continues to increase. The Japanese, for the moment, can still resist the pull…
Posted by chatman at November 8, 2006 01:36 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6127262.stm
35 army men killed in the suicide bombing… musharaff is personally responsible for everyone of these deaths…
almost all of the 80 bombing victims in the Bajaur agency attack were under 20 years…
what we are seeing is the begining of the end of musharraf… the guy will probably be deposed in the very near future…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 8, 2006 02:52 AM
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=3945
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 8, 2006 03:05 AM
If anyone still doesn’t “understand” what I’ve been trying to say about Asians in general and the concept of “to fight without fighting”, please read Chatman’s second last and last paragraph again (1:36 post).
The phrase “powder keg” is only used by American strategic thinkers…. who have been wrong about everything, LOL.
Chatman:
“The Japanese, for the moment. can resist the pull”
Exactly. For the moment. How long is a moment? It will happen. Everyone knows who is Boss around here and it ain’t Amreeka or Japan or India or Pakistan or Korea. And we all know that Taiwan is a renegade province of China.
When the US pulls away from Asia, things will start falling into their natural order.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 04:51 AM
Reality:
Stick to topic, huh? Even I’m getting tired of your whining.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 04:54 AM
Oh sorry….. it slipped my mind… the Pakistani with the anti-Mushi whining was Braveheart, not you.
Sorry dude.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 04:56 AM
Rampart the event is far more significant than you think… the explosion was at the headquarters for the punjab regiment… the toll right now is 42 dead…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 8, 2006 10:36 AM
musharraf is turning the country into another iraq… todays attack clearly spells out the writing on the wall… the guy has to go…
the attack in Bajaur agency was a piss poor attempt at a high value target by US drones firing 3 hellfire missiles… this was done to influence the elections currently going on in the US, incase they did manage to get someone they could put in the paper…
after the last US attack in Pakistan, the modus operandi these guys settled upon was that Pakistan army would take the blame for any US attack until the details of the target hit were verified…
what happened was that they killed 80 odd children… in order to cover that up they claimed that almost all the people killed were militants… then musharraf had the area cordoned off to reporters so that they could not verify what had actually happened…
the locals have compiled a list of the dead along with their addresses… they’re saying there wasnt a single weopon in the place…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 8, 2006 11:45 AM
Don’t get too excited.
1. The creator of TNSM is dead… Mulla Liaqat. He was not an American target. He was a Pakistani target.
2. Pakistan flies drones too. Did you know that?
3. No drone can take out 80 people in the blink of an eye. A Cobra gunship, however, can. So I don’t care what the hell the locals claim they saw.
4. The locals are known to lie.
5. Pakistan takes help from American satellites and drones (if that is the version you like to hear). We have made no secret of that.
6. As they were followers of Mullah Liaqat, they were part of TNSM. They deserved to die.
Sorry.
But, I think what you are trying to say is… there was some drama involved. Oh, I know that. Everything about militants and terrorists involves lies and drama. For example, I am convinced the attempts on Mushi’s life are/were self-created drama. LOL
As for the soldiers dying, I think it is another drama. So don’t worry about it.
If real, however… then they deserved to die too… because of sloppy security.
In the end, I know that Pakistan’s domestic enemies (the foreign ones can’t get us) are being taken care of. Drama aside.
Now stop being impressed by cheap theatrics from both sides and get back on topic. We are not naive Americans (who still find it hard to believe that 9-11 might have been an inside job). We ought to know better, the crap that we are fed. Thanks.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 12:36 PM
Rampart, this is provocative and manipulative. Don’t state something without backing it up:
If Amreeka gets it’s interfering butt out of there, while it still can with some grace…. there will be no powder keg.
Asians know who is who on the pecking order. We all know our place.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 10:37 AM
Please elaborate - who is who in the pecking order?
Posted by Bino at November 7, 2006 10:53 AM
That is for us to know.
Posted by Rampart at November 7, 2006 11:13 AM
Posted by Tovy at November 8, 2006 12:40 PM
It is bleeding-heart, drawing-room chattering-class Pakistanis who made “Baldy and The Bitch” show possible. Which resulted in Mushi.
You have the Govt. YOU deserve. (I don’t vote… never believed in the stupid concept).
The last thing we need in this country is another lousy, corrupt, noodle-like liberal with pre-ejaculation problem.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 12:54 PM
Tovy:
Just because I don’t want to explain “why the sky is blue” doesn’t mean it isn’t.
All you have to do is see history from Chinese eyes. It isn’t the same as seeing it from western eyes.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 01:04 PM
China-India border war in 1962 was about this “pecking order”. So it does exist. In 62, the US was reminded by China, what happens if the pecking order is violated by outsiders.
They made a point.
See? It does exist. But to explain it and it’s history (and Pakistan’s place in it) will take more out of me than I am willing to give.
I do know, this train of thought is uncomfortable for some western people. “So Asians have something going on amongst themselves that we will never be part of???”
Yeah. We do. Big surprise, huh?
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 01:38 PM
Tovey:
On second thought…. you’re a nice guy, so I will explain a little further.
If China hadn’t gone to war against India in 1962, THIS wouldn’t have happened:
http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/08/int18.htm
Now you see?
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 02:10 PM
Pakistan has recon UAVs… none of them can fire a hellfire or any other a2g missile, yet…
the hellfire missile is used by both the US predator and the global hawk series… and they can inflict quite a significant amount of damage upon a building…
pakistan has the AH1 S and F series Cobras… they can launch the TOW missile, but not the hellfire… the TOW is an anti tank missile while the hellfire is an air to ground missile… the TOW cant inflict that sort of damage…
secondly you CANNOT place any guard against this sort of warfare… america is waging a war thousands of miles from its shore… we’re a couple of hours bus ride from the afghan border… once the US goes back from iraq and afghanistan where do you think the talibs will bring their war to?
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 8, 2006 02:20 PM
I never said the Cobra (I assume we used Cobras) fired a Hellfire. That they were hit by a missile fired by a drone, is an assumption that is based on local “eyewitnesses”.
Everyone did see drones overhead starting from a few days before the attack. They could be ours or Amreeka’s.
The Cobra would still have the firepower to level a building in seconds, Hellfire or no Hellfire.
Not that I care. Whoever leveled the place and killed Mullah Liaqat and his “kids” did Pakistan a service. We can do without organizations like the TNSM and their parallel governments (an act of treason). Thank you, whoever you are.
Where would the Taliban go, who will they fight against, after Johnny goes home?
Good question.
I am sure we will have the answer when the answer is required.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 03:09 PM
Lets
Get
Back
To
Topic
I am not going to discuss Mushi’s antics any further or who fired what missile up whose arse.
Thank you for cooperation.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 03:15 PM
Chatman:
Thx for the reality check to my fantasy world. In my meagre defense, Bhutan seems like an idyllic a place that it almost doesn’t fit in this troubled world. The likes of a soulless and heartless China that disparages anything spiritual is the kind of darkness that could crush Bhutan’s light as they did Tibet’s. Again, I appreciate being enlightened.
Sorry Rammi but I want to say that the Talib, although they practice a version of Islam, are also soulless and heartless too. What a sorry excuse for an alternative government.
Realitybites, no way the Talib would start a fight with Pakistan because Pakistan, unlike NATO, can zap those Neandrathals to smitherines.
Posted by shazam at November 8, 2006 03:52 PM
OK, I’m also going off-topic for a second.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061108/ap_on_el_ge/eln_muslim_lawmaker
Congratulations. I hope he is the first of many.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 05:34 PM
American intervention or no, the certainty of Asia’s ‘pecking order’ is hardly as clear as you claim; it never has been. I am going to assume for a moment that you put China at the top of the order; I would argue that it hasn’t always been that way, it isn’t that way now, and there is no guarantee that it will be in the future, regardless of how things look today.
China’s cultural shadow has always been a long one, but both Western and Asian powers have often neutered its political and military influence. The Japanese have always presented a potent counterweight to Chinese cultural and military dominance. Japanese technological ingenuity and military prowess are legendary; they were the only significant Asian power to not only resist Western imperialists, but to actually become an imperial power. Without the intercession of the United States and Russia in WWII, the Chinese would have been hard pressed to stop the Japanese incursions. 400 years earlier, the Chinese barely stopped a Japanese attempt to invade the mainland in 1593 and 1598; Hideyoshi’s much smaller samurai armies almost made it through the Korean peninsula into Northern China.
Prior to the Japanese invasions of the 1930’s, China was enduring its ‘century of humiliation,’ a degrading emasculation of Chinese political authority to Western occupiers. Prior to that, China was dealing with bitter factionalism within its long borders.
The insularity, political ineptitude, and hubris of its leaders were almost incomprehensible; at one point, China’s emperor threatened to embargo rutabaga shipments to Britain unless Britain stopped shipping opium into Shanghai. That same hubris prompted the samurai invasions of the late 1500’s; when Hideyoshi sought official trade links with China, the Chinese emperor informed him that he could become a vassal state of China, and pay an annual tribute for the Emperor’s ‘protection.’ The insult provided Hideyoshi with the ideal pretext to invade the mainland (through Korea) with his thousands of battle-hardened samurai.
Two centuries before the Japanese invasions, Mongol tribesmen decimated China, and set Chinese political and intellectual thought back at least a century.
Today, China still plays second fiddle to the Japanese, and Japan still presents a substantial restraint on Chinese influence in East Asia. To the South, India presents a separate counterweight to Chinese influence, and casts a long cultural shadow of its own. There will never be a repeat of the 1962 war; there will likely never even be a repeat of an armed conflict, because the stakes are just too high.

India and Japan, according to the latest study by Transparency International, have made significant strides in reducing waste and corruption in their respective countries. (interestingly, Israel, Iraq, and United States have slid backward in this area, with marked increases in institutional and capital corruption and waste over the last 3 years; a real shocker).
Waste and inefficiency on a monumental scale continues to plague China, and their government has made little progress in addressing these issues. Meanwhile, India’s comparatively efficient economic expansion inches closer to China’s record-breaking annual figures, with no signs of abatement.
If Indian efforts to curb waste continue, and its drive to privatize state run industries continues apace, most economists predict that India’s economic growth rates, fueled largely by grass roots entrepreneurialism, will generate sustainable growth which could be fed back into greater infrastructure development. That growth would be further advanced if India puts real efforts into resolving the Kashmir impasse, and if it diverted more economic resources into its still largely impoverished and illiterate rural areas.
That said, China and India both face problems in the countryside. These are not issues in Japan, where prosperity is far more widespread, and literacy is almost universal. The Chinese may eventually claim as a natural right their primacy in Asia (a status they covet but have only intermittently achieved), but there’s still plenty that could go wrong for the Chinese dream of unrivalled power in Asia.
Posted by chatman at November 8, 2006 07:27 PM
I don’t think anything can go wrong for them now.
An Indian writer added to an explanation like yours, this way.
Japan and India are the only two in Asia who can challenge China’s “pecking order”.
To keep Japan on it’s toes, China has N.Korea.
To keep India on it’s toes, China has Pakistan.
So you are right. There will never be another India-China war.
I wasn’t talking about how China was able to enforce it’s dominance throughout it’s history, but how they see themselves and their rightful place in Asia.
Right now (or in the near future, if you like) they will have the increasing power to bring a compliance with their self-image out of others. Soft power will be quite enough. India and Japan just aren’t in the same league.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 09:51 PM
Everytime India tried to use it’s influence around it’s neighborhood, it comes back with a bloody nose. Even the Hindu Tamils turned against it. LOL. Even tiny little Bangladesh is showing India it’s teeth. Pakistan has now just as much influence in Nepal (probably more) than India does.
You really think this weak-sister called “India” is in China’s league… or that it ever can be? Can India have “soft-power” the kind the Chinese have?
Before India can be a global power, it has to be a regional power. And to be the sole regional power, they have finish us off first. Good luck with THAT.
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 10:11 PM
Oh.. and are the Sri Lankans buying Indian weapons… or Pakistani weapons? LOL
India doesn’t even have influence in it’s own country, how the hell do you expect it to project power (or soft power) to match that of China?
Japan? Forget it. In the end, they will always be dependent for raw materials on their neighbors. (the very reason they started WW2)
Posted by Rampart at November 8, 2006 10:20 PM
I think your national prejudices are talking. Try to look objectively at what’s changed in the last 15 even, or even in the last 3.
In the recent Tsunami disaster, the Indian Navy was a major participant in restructuring operations in Sri Lanka and parts of Indonesia, coordinating at times with elements of the U.S 6th Fleet. In what might be a historical first, India was dispensing aid to others, refused international aid offered to it, and had more relief money from within its borders than it knew what to do with. Compare that to the Gujarat earthquake only 3 years prior; the amount of money donated by Indians to the Prime Minister’s relief fund in a year was matched in less than 2 weeks when the Tsunamis hit; there’s a lot more money and infrastructure in the country now than there was three years ago. I was actually on a beach in Orissa at the time it happened.. a near miss.
However, noting how well they handled the situation then, I have some cause to doubt your categorical assertions putting the regional ‘dunce’ cap on the Indians. Like it or not, they are making progress, and there are smarter (and richer) people than you or I recognizing India’s potential. The global community has not ignored it; Saudi Royalty, EU bigwigs, and the U.S president came calling upon Manmohan Singh the space of a single month; one only wishes that Singh dressed a little better.
In the end, though, it doesn’t matter so much, because much of the world is falling over itself to sell stuff to China, and then to India. Like it or not, they are part of the global buzz. And in all honesty, regional power status is not exclusive. All that really has to happen is a clear resolution of the Kashmir issue; given that, both India and Pakistan will find themselves unfettered in a substantial way.
At any rate, if you ever have occasion to visit the country you love to hate, you’ll surely notice the speed and scale of road building projects throughout the country; they lay down more paved roads and bridges than the Americans do nowadays, and they do it faster. Of course, the Chinese do it even faster than that, but it seems the both countries are keen on resolving their infrastructure bottlenecks as fast as possible. Also, objective international observers have noticed that corruption and waste levels are slowly declining in India, while they remain steady in China, and are increasing here in North America. All of these signs are indicators of India’s potential being slowly realized.
I won’t argue there aren’t problems; what nation doesn’t have problems? India’s are pernicious; abject poverty, religious fundamentalism, widespread illiteracy, the persistence of barbaric tribal customs and caste, female infanticide, institutional corruption, pollution… but when talking about a nation with over a billion people that has been completely misgoverned for over 4 decades, the best you can do is measure the rate at which the still enfeebled government can change things.
As for Japan.. again, the primary resource restrictions it faces (oil and gas) are the same ones faced by the Chinese and the Indians. The difference between Japan and those other two nations is that he Japanese have cash to spare, access to substantial technology and intellect, and a much smaller population to maintain. On account of their technologies alone, I imagine that the average Japanese citizen consumes a third of the fossil fuels that an American at the same income level does, and perhaps a fifth of a comparable Chinese or Indian citizen. That, and nowadays, the Japanese happen to have some very powerful friends in the U.S 7th Fleet, and at the USMC base in Okinawa.
Posted by chatman at November 9, 2006 12:19 AM
Chatman:
“India’s economy, though zesty, is only the size of Holland’s” (Eric Margolis)
Indian Navy helped in the Tsunami. Yep. So did our Navy. In a very big way. So what?
But yes… we shall see if you are right, or if I am. Only time will tell. Fair enough?
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 01:40 AM
Reality:
Breaking my own rule… reading about the suicide attack.. I take it back. This thing is for real.
Which shows we got the right target. And how dangerous these people are.
Maybe I am too cynical… maybe it is all real… bloody hell.
But I know the people who run things are the right people in the right place at the right time. So no need to worry too much. First Bugti gone… now this guy… more will follow hopefully.
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 02:04 AM
“India’s economy, though zesty, is only the size of Holland’s” (Eric Margolis)
Yeah he says that a lot. But if you tabulate the economic figures the way he does (not taking PPP into account), China’s economy is only slightly larger than the UK ($1.6 trillion), and the Japanese dominate Asia with an economy larger than China’s and India’s combined ($3-4 trillion).
This is obviously not the whole story; in terms of real dollar value of goods and services traded in India and China, these economic numbers are nothing to get excited about. But if you look at it in terms of what how people value their business transactions regionally, it’s a lot easier to understand what the hype is all about; multiply GDP per capita in PPP over the population, and you get a $5 trillion economy in China, a $3 trillion economy in India, and a $4 trillion economy in Japan. That’s the balance of numbers that has the world wondering where Asia is going…
As you say, only time will conclusively answer that question. However, I can sincerely hope that wherever Asia goes, it will do so in peace; over 3 billion lives hang in the balance.
Arka C.
Posted by chatman at November 9, 2006 03:00 AM
Very good! I was just going to say that China’s economy is not much bigger than Britain’s (I heard this comment on the BBC 3 years ago) but you said it.
Yes, these figures are without PPP.
Asia is going where the world can’t imagine. And I am pretty sure there will be no war anywhere…. IF Amreeka doesn’t create a spark.
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 06:58 AM
Rampart its not about getting the right person… Its about the 70-80 kids who were killed… no one in pakistan cares about what the guy was about or even if he got killed…
they all care about the collateral damage… the entire fata region is up in arms and fact of the matter is that the 80% of the pakistani people who were on the fence about mushy’s dirty little war are now clearly against him…
This is how a responsible nation takes blame for a mistake
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6131566.stm
not by trying to deny everything…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 9, 2006 07:06 AM
Rampart said: Tovy:
>Just because I don’t want to explain “why the sky is blue” doesn’t mean it isn’t.
>All you have to do is see history from Chinese eyes. It isn’t the same as seeing it from western eyes.
- So then, dude, don’t bring stuff like that up if all you’re intending to do is be provocative and manipulative. Alternately, go start your own blog and manipulate another audience.
Posted by Tovy at November 9, 2006 10:19 AM
Tovy:
Too bad you feel manipulated if you can’t understand what I clearly explained in subsequent posts.
Your problem.
Reality:
All the dead were from the damn seminary. They were not innocent ‘kids’. And the bomb blast in retaliation proved it.
We have nothing to be sorry for.
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 11:37 AM
Tovey:
Chatman understood exactly what I was saying (even though he didn’t agree with the finer points of it) but he got it.
—————————————
One day all the animals in the zoo were laughing… except the bear.
How come? people asked.
Well.. the monkey told a joke and everyone thought it was funny…. the bear didn’t get the joke I guess.
Next day, all the animals in the zoo were normal but the bear was laughing.
What’s up this time? people asked.
The bear just got the joke.
———————————————
Give it time.
And nice try trying to moderate my behaviour. LOL
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 12:06 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Well, this is interesting. By these standards, Pakistan beat the likes of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Switzerland among other worthies. This seems odd… but then….
While using the traditional standards, Pakistan and India have nearly equal per capita incomes…. the cost of living must be a lot cheaper in India. I have some idea of the cost of cars… they are a lot cheaper there than here.
So the PPP way to calculate gives a truer pic.
Posted by Rampart at November 9, 2006 01:11 PM
rampart -
Childish crap notwithstanding, it is not my problem. It is yours, but I will not tell you why, i will just take a page out of your book and state it, without backing it up.
Posted by Tovy at November 9, 2006 02:44 PM
Tovy, you have a burr up your ass. Whatever it was, let it go and start smiling again. I read a report that having a good mood is an effective way to lower high blood pressure (along with weight management and smoking cessation). Makes sense - when I get steamed my BP rises.
Rampart, to pick up on the bear joke, “He who laughs last is…. the slowest”. Tovy, that is not a barb. Chill man. BTW, nobody can manipulate you unless you let them so take responsibility.
This Manchurian theme is about worn out. OK, where will Eric strike next? My guess - the US election results, with particular focus on the Iraq war and a lame duck President. So far I am batting 000.
Posted by shazam at November 9, 2006 05:05 PM
As it stands both China and India are well on their way to assuming their rightful place in the world barring a catastrophe, which can only be envisioned in terms of a natural calamity as neither of them have a propensity to be a nation that is trigger happy.

While each will have their sphere of influence both of these giant nations have a natural respect for the other in keeping with the Asian mindset. They have a rich past and ancient civilizations and neither, unlike the umrikkkans is burdened with the ideology of Manifest Destiny and self-imposed responsibility of civilizing the rest of the heathen world. More importantly neither country has overtly displayed imperialistic tendencies in the past.
Just the aspect that neither of these countries can be colonized any longer by an outside power will ensure that Asia will see stability and avoid the upheavals that others have encountered in various parts of the world.
A healthy competition between the two will not only have concomitant beneficial effects for both of their respective populations but as well on countries surrounding them.

Japan will continue to be efficient, innovative and a technological phenomenon but will be limited in the future because of its population base in comparison to that of China and India. But to realize its potential it will also have to throw off the yoke of unrikkkan domination from around its neck.
Rampart:
Talking about interfering butts, don’t you think that if you sleep with the devil too much you eventually have to do his biding?

Mushie has inexorably allied himself too much with the devil and the war on terrorism in the hopes of extracting some benefit and now has lost credibility at home and soon will lose his soul if the trend continues.

You know very well that NWFP has been a fairly self-autonomous area of Pakistan and all the while has maintained cordial relations with most of the central governments.
The Talibs are not a threat to Pakistan’s integrity as you know and by their very nature bear no antagonism to the country. The government of Pakistan has no business being hostile to the people of these areas. Slaughtering its own will not ever ingratiate Mushy or his government to Johnny as you said yourself, he will be gone.
The strike in Bajaur was engineered by the umrikkkans and has achieved its purpose to scuttle the signing of the peace agreements between the Pakistani government and the local authorities there, which were slated for shortly before the strike happened.

Finding itself in a very tenuous situation, the government, to maintain its claim of sovereignty over these areas naturally had to also accept the claim for the missile attack on the Seminary.
Now we have a tit for tat retaliatory reaction, matters can spiral out of control very quickly and the blood that will flow will only be that of the inhabitants of the region.
This has been the modus operandi of these criminals in different parts of the world, history is littered with the events of these kinds of actions, and one has only to look.
This devil has an insatiable appetite for blood, everywhere he goes there are rivers of crimson red flowing. When will we ever learn that short-term gain will only lead to long-term pain?
Shazam:
It may be a bit premature to close the Manchurian file. But I was wondering from EM’s title “From Deepest Manchuria” if he is actually travelling there and maybe riding on the back of a Yak or a Reindeer smoking a pipe, man this guy gets around.
Posted by oldfan at November 9, 2006 06:13 PM
Interesting guess oldfan. You are quite right - he is up there and a trip like that must be made to count. Eric leads a cool and courageous life.
OK, tip of the month. I recommend an exciting novel based loosley on the Arab-American conflict and more by New York Times #1 bestselling author, David Baldacci:
“The Camel Club”.
Be prepared to read through the night - its that gripping.
Posted by shazam at November 9, 2006 07:13 PM
Shazam:
Thanks for the book. Got it.
Use Mirc to connect to Undernet server and goto channel Books#. Put this in the message box:
!EBrarian Baldacci, David - The Camel Club [html].rar
You will get the book in a few seconds.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 12:31 AM
Sorry.. it’s not “books”… it’s “bookz”.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 12:32 AM
Oldfan:
If Amreeka was so smart that they could engineer strikes so that people fight amongst ourselves… Iran would be dead by now.
They are not that smart. LOL
Despite your saying so, the Taliban types (the TNSM wasn’t strictly “taliban”) are an insidious threat to the country (the list of threats they pose is too long to go into here). It is about time we did something about them.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 12:43 AM
Oldfan:
It is Amreeka that is sleeping with the Devil. LOL
See? Inside Afghanistan, they can’t hit a cow’s arse with a shovel. Inside Pakistan, we…. or they (if you like)… kill them off with pin-point accuracy.
Who is making this possible? We are, of course. Why? Because I had told you earlier, even if Amreeka hadn’t said “you are with us or against us”, we had decided that the Taliban’s time was up anyway.
Most Pakistani’s are now quite fed-up with people who make a mission out Islam. It is a competition… who do we dislike most… Amreeka or people with beards?
Here are a few letters from newpapers which underline my point:
A SUICIDE bomber killed 42 soldiers of the Pakistan army in the Malakand district. Last week when Pakistan army launched an attack on an alleged training camp in Bajaur, lots of politicians and religious leaders claimed that the men killed were innocent people. Some lawyers went on a strike while some journalists went to Bajaur on a fact-finding mission.
Will these politicians and religious leaders now come out in public and condemn the suicide attack and stand behind the army? Will the lawyers go on strike and will respectable journalists go on a fact-finding mission to Dargai to ascertain who was behind this horrendous act of terror?
I guess not because we as a nation do not have a conscience.
SARDAR KHAN
Birmingham, UK
THE recent suicide bombing in Dargai clearly depicts that the army action against Bajaur was not wrong. Unarmed civilians cannot retaliate by carrying out a suicide attack. It also suggests that people in that region are fully armed and can kill anyone. They have challenged the government’s writ as they do not abide by any rules or regulations.
I think people in Pakistan should now understand that they are all facing terrorism. They should now back the government to eliminate terrorism from society.
HAYAT MALICK
Lahore
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 01:02 AM
Eric’s next topic…. that’s easy. Amreekan elections and Rummy getting fired.
Japan’s defense chief said Rummy worried the heck out of him and he’s glad the dude will stay at home now. LOL
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 01:13 AM
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=31303
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 10, 2006 02:01 AM
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=31308
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 10, 2006 02:15 AM
Yes, yes…. we are just supposed to surrender the moment someone sez “boo”….
It doesn’t work like that.
You can quote all these newspapers that cried crocodile tears over terrorists like Bugti when we blasted him….. it doesn’t matter. His “cause” is now effectively dead.
Similarly, the TNSM and others like them, will also die.
There are many Pakistani liberals with weak stomachs…. Fortunately, there are many more others who don’t suffer from such conditions.
Do you understand… at all… how all these “movements” and activists are used by foreign intelligence agencies for background cover and support?
Anyone who doesn’t realize this, is an idiot. You think arresting all those Uzbecks was done on a whim?
You gave me links… I give you one. Study it well, even though the writer is a known simpleton. This time, however, he sees the same pattern I do.
We really are at war against outside forces and however much it pains me to say this, we are being forced more and more by circumstances to see things the way Amreeka sees things.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HK09Df02.html
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 03:42 AM
Get it? The only part of the article worth noting…
What this guy is implying is that when Johnny goes home, the anti-Pakistan fake-taliban will automatically vanish. No puppet-master, no puppets.
We did manage to stop the smuggling of weapons into Baluchistan from Afdirtistan (after kiling Bugti). All 6 routes have been blocked (DAWN).
See how it works?
Pakistani two-bit islamist movements can be heavily manipulated by outsiders. TNSM was one of them. Much too easy for Afghans or whoever to use it as cover or to disturb peace in the area … like when they blocked the Karakoram Highway…. Pakistan’s road link to China. We should’ve killed them back then, but then Baldy was running the country.
Giving examples of countries like Sri Lanka is useless. SriLanka does not have nuclear weapons. Countries with nuclear weapons behave different because they have to. They are quite an order of brutality above what you might think normal when dealing with traitors and religious nuts who we have lost control of.
Remember Waco, Texas? And can you imagine a party… with it’s own camps and madressas… like the TNSM surviving unmolested in Britain? Or France?
What did the Chinese do that damn Falun-gung?
When you eat at the big-boyz table, you have to chew your food much better. Can’t afford to choke at that table.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 09:08 AM
From Manchuria to Pakistan and now to Gaza. If the Palestinians sent artillery into the apartments of sleeping Israelis, killing 18 and wounding many more, the world would be outraged and the Palestininas labelled, appropriately, as terrorists. The Israelis exercise terrorism on a state scale and now they got what they apparently want, an end to the one-sided truce with Hamas so they can repress, oppress, and murder the leadershiop that is standing up for the rights of the Palestinina people with impunity. How can Israel be allowed by this world to still be holding Hamas elected officials in their jails? This is a an indication of how much control (via fear of lost funding, bribes, or being accused of anti-semitism) they have on the hearts and voices of otherwise decent people.
I am also angry and flabergasted at the studied silence of Arab heads of state. And of course nary a whisper from any US politician who is afraid Jewish campaign funding will be diverted to a more maleable opponent. And where are the voices of the Jews - are they too afraid to criticize the behaviour of that rogue state?
Posted by ghawley at November 10, 2006 12:40 PM
Rampart, define terrorism…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 10, 2006 01:11 PM
Ghawley:
While I understand, and to a large extent sympathize with your frustrations, I have to ask; what does the Arab-Israeli conflict have to do with Eric’s article, or much of the predeceding discussion that emerged from it?
For some reason, no matter what Eric writes about, it always comes back to Pakistan or Isreal. I think we owe Eric, as guests on his blog, to try and contain the discussion within the reasonable scope of his article for the given week.
Posted by chatman at November 10, 2006 02:06 PM
Chatman,
I like your phrase: “…as guests on his blog…”.
I hear your mild admonishment and won’t argue it. I will say that world events have overtaken the relevancy of Eric’s latest post. Which is why there is an ongoing appetite for his services - they are topical and insightful FOR THE MOMENT.
I agree no one should consistently steer the blog to pet causes. And I admit to being somewhat, maybe more than somewhat, focused on the widespread misfortune imposed on the Palestinians and the rest of us by the Israeli Occupation and control over US mid-east foreign policy.
Asia politics are, admittedly, a different playing field altogether. I suppose if I tried I could tease out a thread linking Eric’s Manchuria post to troubles in Pakistan, India, and Afganistan. But hell, in my defense, I am righteously outraged by the recent attack on Gazans. Others have also disconnectedly interjected outrages on matters great and small. So, friend, and I sincerely consider you such, I ask you to tolerate to some extent my occasional outbursts on behalf of the disinherited and powerless.
If you will, it may help to bear in mind that (i) I care, and (ii) I am not a dogmatic religious fundamentalist that disrupts discourse in an ignorant attempt to bury the truth. That being said, Chatman, I am not discounting your gentle rap on the knuckles. Others for or against?
Posted by ghawley at November 10, 2006 03:39 PM
I beg to differ on the whole concept of ‘staying on topic’. While I certainly agree that, on the whole, the posts should reflect the topic of Eric’s column, I don’t believe in limiting discourse.
Of course, there are two ways the topic can be side-lined;
1) a recent newsworthy event such as Rumsfeld’s resignation, and
2) the never-ending rants of the One-Cause-Nutcases (no names mentioned).
I just have a hard time with people telling others what they are “allowed” to talk about.
—————————————-
Is it just me or do others also have the reaction of immediately disregarding opinions that use the spelling ‘Amreeka’ or ‘Umrickan’ or whatever other silliness? It’s like listening to yokels complain about the ‘gubmint’ it’s impossible to take it seriously.
—————————————-
When I learned of Rumsfeld’s resignation on Google, I excitedly mentioned it to five co-workers. Four of them said ‘Who?’ So much for Canadian superiority. What an embarrassment. Actually, one of the four is an American co-worker! Fucking astounding that he didn’t know who Rumsfled was! But like they all asked me “So what?” to which I had no reply.
A person can be smart, but people are idiots.
DCanuck
Posted by D. Canuck at November 10, 2006 04:12 PM
ghawley:
You Sir, truely are an embodiment, personify the word gentleman in its essence.
I too am guilty to some degree in diverting the thread of discussion this week, but this issue among others tugs at my heart as well, but more on it later….
The compliment above is after all meant for myself, as you know I am aka you know who?
Posted by oldfan at November 10, 2006 04:30 PM
“I just have a hard time with people telling others what they are “allowed” to talk about.”
DCanuck, I think you misspelled the word ‘Umrickan’ it is actually spelled ‘umrikkkan’.
I too like you, have a hard time with people telling others that the validity of their opinions have meaning or not in your perception, by the way a particular word is spelled out. It’s a pity that your reactions are so easily derailed.
The English language is not a precise one; on the contrary it is an evolving and hodge podge of many other languages.
Posted by oldfan at November 10, 2006 05:12 PM
Thank you for the kind acknowledgement oldfan.
I think DCanuck did touch on something though. I get the kkk in umrikkkan and, while however appropriate a subliminal message, it is a form of name-calling and exhibits a disdain (again, however appropriate) that suggests the casual reader can expect a rant rather than an informed and reasonable analysis. Now, we all know the folks using the “sluranguish” aka nicknames for USA, do provide insight and sound analysis. That is a fact that can get lost in whatever reaction one has to name calling (again, however well deserved).
DCanuck, have you ever watched Jay Leno’s Walkabout segment? If not, let me say the comedic result is both worrisome and hilarious. Jay asks LA-Burbank residents questions like: “What do you do?” and “Who is the President?”, etc. Anything obvious. Then Jay shows those who don’t have a clue. What is practically agonizing from the perspective of one who believes in the importance of an informed citizenry is many of the respondants are teachers, or other professionals who should know better.
Posted by ghawley at November 10, 2006 05:43 PM
“I beg to differ on the whole concept of ‘staying on topic’. While I certainly agree that, on the whole, the posts should reflect the topic of Eric’s column, I don’t believe in limiting discourse.”
In public discourse, I see no reason to limit what can be said, but this is a private forum broadcasting Eric’s views. We express ourselves using his servers and bandwidth. Hence, as guests, we owe it to our host to use the comments section to broadly respond to the issues our host raises, rather than invoking other causes we think are more important. None of us would be having these discussions if Eric didn’t provide the instigating opinions, and a comments section to discuss them.
“Is it just me or do others also have the reaction of immediately disregarding opinions that use the spelling ‘Amreeka’ or ‘Umrickan’ or whatever other silliness?”
Amreeka is how a lot of South Asians actually pronounce it; hence, they spell it that way too. I’m not really sure why they do this; I do know that most South Asians claim they can speak better English than the English themselves. I’m not sure if I buy that…
Umrikkka is a continuing admonition used by Oldfan, and I agree with you that it makes it hard to seriously analyze or evaluate a point of view when one uses that deliberate misspelling as a blanket insult.
Oldfan said: “The English language is not a precise one; on the contrary it is an evolving and hodge podge of many other languages.”
That’s a truism that hardly explains your particular spelling. I somehow doubt your version will be incorporated into Webster’s any time soon. Again, I can understand why you may have problems with the policies of our government; but your use of the KKK is nothing more than a blanket insult against those Americans who may or may not share your views.
Posted by chatman at November 10, 2006 08:14 PM
First of all, I’m with Chatman (God what is the world coming to?) on this…. I am getting sick of trying to explain “Pakistan, this, India, that”.
This time, it was Mr.Reality, not me. I just replied so he could sleep better.
Second… we say “Amreeka”, not as a sign of disrespect. One, we really do speak this way and it is out of habit. Second, if I say “Amreeka”, I am giving a hint to others that I am as familier with the place as my own neighborhood. It is a signal of familiarity, one which many S.Asian use.
Like calling somebody with his nickname is supposed to make others feel like you’re his buddy or something.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 10:35 PM
D.Canuck:
I walked into a very posh place wearing rubber bathroom slippers (it is very warm here). The guy at the door looked me up and down, but I gave him a dirty look of my own so he didn’t say anything.
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 10:51 PM
D.Canuck:
I am giving you my best cock-eyed Popeye the Sailor look.
Let me know if you can feel anything… maybe a dull throbbing in your temples….
Maybe Eric might feel something….
Posted by Rampart at November 10, 2006 11:42 PM
Communication 101
When the US solders enter into Iraq the solders made V sign with their fingers. Now a V sign means Victory in Arab world which was an insult for the Iraqis but V sign for American means peace. There you go
It’s an example of miscommunication the point is when you are communicating across different cultures you have to keep these things in mind.
In my view no language is inferior or superior. Any language that you can communicate your message through is fine. But yes the dominant language of the time will be the language of the dominant power.
Posted by Peace at November 11, 2006 11:08 AM
Okay, okay I take your point Chatman, my spelling America the way I do is to give offence to all those that have betrayed the ideals of what America was meant be and become.
While fully cognizant that it would upset many good people I have continued to use it as a sign of conveying my utter disgust and disapproval. It is also to give pause to some who may want to reflect the cause of America and how it has come to be perceived.
In the cause of the greater good, peace and justice and espousing to higher ideals, I succumb to your reasoned arguments, if only your country could come to the same conclusions.
To all please read, off topic but nevertheless pertinent;

http://civillibertarian.blogspot.com/2006/11/unleashing-christ-within.html
Posted by oldfan at November 11, 2006 01:00 PM
“Pakistan this, India that”
Who are you kidding Rampart, you know you really love every minute of it, that is explaining about ….. this and that!
Posted by oldfan at November 11, 2006 01:20 PM
We speak the English language because the English rode our butts for 200 years. And because it is the second easiest language to pick up (Urdu being the first… I can guarantee teaching basic Urdu communication in 24 hours).
Amreeka had nothing at all to do with teaching us English. They can hardly speak the language properly themselves.
So Mr.Peace is right, but the dominant culture were the British and that was a very long time ago. The language survives on it’s own merit of ease of use despite the dominant culture descending into yobism.
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 01:36 PM
Oldfan:
Maybe I do tend to carry on a bit. Maybe a part of me does enjoy making everyone choke on the name “Pakistan” …. But then I have plenty of other stuff too that I would like you all to choke on and maybe it is time to give those a try.
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 02:03 PM
Oldfan:
The article represents the idealism that would make a revolutionary proud, but a historical realist shudder. How many revolutionary movements founded on similar idealism leave the societies they purport to ‘rescue’ worse off than they started.
“The new government of the people nationalized major corporations providing essential goods and services such as healthcare, food, and utilities.”
I won’t argue with you that corporations have too much power. But a free market system where people are ‘actually’ equal works more efficiently than any nationalized system. Look at India’s idealistic attempts at ‘third world’ socialism; it was an absolute disaster. In this country, state run enterprises (rail, power, road maintenance, schools) are among the least efficient and poorest run of any institutions; rare are the government services that are run efficiently. Governments are good at governing; they’re not supposed to ‘run everything.’ To me, a more sensible way to incrementally disempower corporations and empower ‘the people’ is to;
(1) Restrict their influence on government by closing congress, and preventing lobbyists from entering the governing chamber while legislative debates are in progress.
(2) Exercise greater oversight on campaign spending, and eliminate soft and hard money; there is a compelling interest here that overrides their first amendment protections. (The author notes this)
(3) Strengthen existing laws dealing with the enforcement of corporate or commercial form contracts; ensure that consumers have real bargaining power, and don’t sign away their rights by ignoring the pages of boilerplate you find in contracts for luxuries and necessities.
(4) Robustly enforce anti-trust actions, and tortious actions for unfair business practices.
(5) Under legal and political changes (1) – (4), privatize EVERYTHING except defense, and perhaps education.
(6) Increase Federal and State spending on college loans.
Moving on to the author’s other fantasies…
“those who had found a unifying set of convictions in the wisdom of Christ and dismantled the American Empire could rejoice. Gaining far more than they had lost, they had reclaimed their souls, individually and collectively.”
A Christ centered rebellion? A revolution based on religious teachings? I shudder at the very thought. Does he really think that such a revolution, that draws its key principles from the teachings of Christ, would ever countenance the assembly below?
“The assembly was comprised of men, women, Blacks, Latinos, Whites, Asians, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Atheists, Gays, Native Americans, the disabled, the mentally ill, and more. Ensuring diversity and equality was a significant priority to the new government.”
Religion in this country is the very antithesis of rational thinking and tolerance; faith by definition is belief without rational basis.
Moreover, the teachings of the Bible, in this case, can be interpreted in many ways; this author has cherry picked certain phrases to espouse the rebellion he fantasizes; other revolutionaries might seize on different Biblical language creating a more oppressive government. Hence, just as easily as the author’s fantasy world arises, Religion can be used as a conduit for people of faith to oppress in more traditional ways.
Nowadays, it seems that the only time religions unite is when they have to express their common hatred for others; recently, Imams, Christians, and Jews in Jerusalem all came together in cooperative harmony to… violently condemn a gay rights march through the holy city. In the U.S, disparate religious groups find themselves coming to together for the same purposes.
Against this backdrop, the author wants religious principles to determine what natural justice is? I can already imagine ‘radical’ wings of Christ inspired revolutionaries seizing government, and then criminalizing homosexuality, abortion, human-cell based sciences, education in religious and diversity, and the teaching of evolutionary theory. I can also see a rollback of women’s rights, and a restoration of women to ‘the pedestal’ as fragile flowers requiring protection from the public sphere.
Does he have any idea that his earnest talk of ‘Christ inspired revolution’ could have such grave human rights implications?
Thomas Jefferson, a known secularist, was strictly opposed to creating government based on religious principles; he was a disciple of the rational enlightenment. What we need today are not more religious fanatics in important government positions, but secular humanists who understand that there’s a reason why the founding charters of this country do not mention religious teachings anywhere in their text.
Posted by chatman at November 11, 2006 02:13 PM
Buckwheat:
People without a religion… turn into Kim.
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 02:26 PM
Religion and State a fine line
There is one thing that people confuses is that it make perfect sense to separate state and church in the western societies and the reason is simple. Christianity and Judaism these are religions which address only certain aspects of human life.
Islam on the other hand is not a religion it’s a way of life, which means its addresses every aspect of humane life and so when it comes to an Islamic society you have to put religion and state together. But keep in mind I am not talking about the shouting crowds in Muslim countries, I am talking about sensible and educated scholars who knows the religious teachings and the mechanics of how the world functions in order to merge two together.
Posted by Peace at November 11, 2006 02:58 PM
Sensible and educated Islamic scholars?
And where would I find such a beast???
Read the Koran yourself instead of being told what’s in there. You will find that you have been lied to by all these “sensible and educated scholars”.
Islam is a religion of practical life. It has nothing to do with the nonsense the “scholars” make out of it. And it certainly doesn’t belong in the polluted atmosphere of Govts. and politics.
What is wrong with you people? You like being led by the nose?
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 03:14 PM
LOL
Rampart:
I agree to a great extent with what you are saying. But there are things that need to be addressed on the state level. There are two types of relationships, individual to indivdual and individual to the state.
when it comes to an individual relationship with the state you need state laws to address those issues for example how would you run your banking system, who would pay taxes and how etc etc
May be we are looking at the same peak from different directions. May be you are right I guess few lines don’t convey the whole concept.
Posted by Peace at November 11, 2006 03:29 PM
Probably. We might be saying the same thing.
I just have a dislike and loathing
or people who have smug/holy expressions on their face… like constipation…. and who like to dress in robes… and like to speak in stupid accents…. and like to grow beards. And I specially dislike headscarf-whores. The headscarf/veil was, after all, invented in Sumaria and was worn by upper class women who were recruited into temples/brothels for training as prostitutes.
This mode of dress was taken up by Christians (as it was seen as “high class” … a kind of religious snobbery). And then it was adopted by Muslims 300 years after the Prophet passed away.
So I am quite allergic to anything that makes me see such ugly faces. And I include muslims, christian and jewish “scholars”, popes, nuns and whatevers, in my League of Constipated Gentleman and Women.
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 03:41 PM
See a pic of any of Iran’s Ayatollah’s? Compare their faces to any Pope? (fuckers even dress alike, LOL)
Both look like they swallowed a turd and washed it down with a bottle of booze. They all have a curious sanctimonious/pained/peaceful expression on their faces. Bearded or shaved… they look stupid.
In the end, these people are merchants of words. And words are cheap.
Posted by Rampart at November 11, 2006 03:52 PM
I agree both in the East and in the West most religious leaders are in the business of selling religion. But they won’t make me hate religion nor distort my view about the religion.
Posted by Peace at November 11, 2006 04:45 PM
I don’t hate religion. But I do hate the professionals who come with it.
Nor are my views distorted. Read the Koran and see for yourself. LOL
I just haven’t got a slave mentality.
—————————-
I told you all, I’ve plenty of other stuff we can happily choke on.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 01:33 AM
I am a Pathan. I can’t properly digest my food unless I am sticking it to someone, anyone.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 01:35 AM
Oh.. and btw… the drones that were seen during the attack on the terrorists (none of whom was under 20 years old) were all Pakistani. Mushi said he saw a live feed for two minutes of the seminary before he gave the order to blow it up.
He did say the intitial intelligence was given to him by the Americans.
If anyone cares to read the letters to the newspapers today, one can see how most of us want all these traitors dead.
————————————
If anyone wants to read Eric’s DAWN article….
http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/12/op.htm#3
Chinese loans for the US. Very nice article.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 01:48 AM
Great article… a 1 trillion dollar surplus. That means they’ve doubled their foreign reserves in the last three years. Interestingly enough, the United States has less in its foreign reserves that Pakistan, according to the Economist. A nation of debtors is what we are…
One thing’s for sure; Eric’s description of Chinese cities as ‘Sci-Fi’ looking is dead on; when it comes the to infrastructure, the future is now in China. Shanghai makes NYC look small…
One thing I’ve read though is that a great deal of that real-estate sits empty; the Chinese incentive system encourages the construction of public works and infrastructure projects, whether they are needed or not. As a result, they build a lot of stuff, but quite often, it doesn’t really get used.
Of course, I think I’d rather have an incentive system that encouraged this kind of construction on a mass scale over the alternative…
Posted by chatman at November 12, 2006 02:28 AM
mushy would say anything now to try and justify his actions… the dead bodies of those kids dont lie…
the pakistani UAVs can do only recon… the cobras Pakistan has, can launch the TOW and simple rockets… those too from an easily recognisable range…
if pakistani cobras had taken part; there wouldnt be any confusion regarding as to who had struck (I should point out that the pakistani army has never bombarded any area like this in the fata region without explicit provocation)
a terrorist in my definitiion is someone who’s “cause” justifies slaughter of innocent human life… killing anyone without due process or establishment of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt…
even if musharaff saw bin laden dancing around a bon fire down there; he cant justify killing all those innocent children…
thats what iraq has become… a sanctimonious killing field in the name civilization… there are over a hundred people being killed there everyday in the name of weopons of mass destruction that never existed…
no one in the US would bat an eye if pakistan ended that way, prosecuting america’s “war on terror”… that is what musharraf is driving us towards… saying that we have fought other people’s war in the past is hypocrisy… we fought the soviets because it was in our interests not be over run by them…
This war however is another ball game altogether…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 07:47 AM
One can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.
Is there any other evidence of “dead kids” besides them saying so?
I remember the same nonsense in Balochistan… webpages full of “dead kids”. Yeah sure… Guess what… now that the journalists are allowed back into the area… no dead kids. LOL
Anyway.. it is now clear we are not dealing with ordinary people. THESE guys have unlimited access to high-explosives and weaponry. So the targeting was spot on.
Lets deal in fact, shall we?
Fact: TNSM working against the interests of Pakistan.
Fact: Mulla Liaqat sent thousand of young people (your “kids”) into Afghanistan to fight Amreeka (which the incompetents couldn’t), while sitting in luxury over here.
Fact: He’s dead with his leadership.
Fact: Pro-Govt. tribal leaders are still being killed by people such as the ones you are crying over.
Fact: The people we killed were executing people… carrying out capital punishments, using their own courts. What is this? Look up the definition of TREASON.
They have to be stopped. First of all, I doubt if any “kids” died. Second… even if there was collateral damage… it was necessary.
This country is very capable of doing what is necessary to survive, no matter how much you or other soft-agents working against the country, would like it not to.
Anything else?
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 08:52 AM
You did the impossible.
You have bored the hell out of me with your anti-
Mushi sentiments clouding your reasoning about the enemy.
I am sure everyone else here is equally disgusted and bored with you …. and with me (thanks to you).
Now shut up and go back to sleep. There are people who are busy protecting you, whether you like it or not.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 08:59 AM
Chatman:
What you pointed out…. if you watch the movie “Mission Impossible 3” one gets the same impression… much modern architecture with few people inside (but that is only a movie… can’t form an opinion based on that alone).
Also… India, US, or anyone can’t compete with China because… China is cheating.
Maybe Eric can confirm? That they are giving, more or less free electricity to their industries? I’ve heard that if you declare home or whatever, a factory, they don’t charge you for power. LOL
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 09:09 AM
Just yesterday I went to the bazaar to get an MP3 player/recorder.
All I could see there, was stuff made in China. They make things so cheap, they have driven everyone else out of the market.
Got a 2-GB MP3/MP4 video-player for far less than I thought I would have to spend.
I was a bit shocked.
Hey… anyone drive a Cherry-QQ yet?
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 09:17 AM
So if they are getting free electricity (or at very reduced rates) for working… that would explain perhaps why they continue to produce even if there aren’t any immediate buyers. LOL
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 09:20 AM
http://www.dawn.com/2006/11/12/int10.htm
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 09:42 AM
Btw….
http://www.pakistanidefence.com/news/Articles&Analysis/PAF_BVR_Missiles.html
We really can blow you to tiny little bits…. and you won’t even know we were there. No aircraft would be seen or heard.
That we have BVR capability is old news.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 09:53 AM
:D
BVR is for air to air missiles; and thats a really nice link; :)
since i’m one of the people who manage the site
we do have a2g weoponry which can reach the range you’re talking about(H4 and babur); but i’ll point out two facts
1. 3 missiles were used
2. if cruise missiles were used there would have been considerable more devastation
there is only one likely a2g missile which can do this from the range specified; and thats the hellfire
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 10:14 AM
the article you’re listing is an old one…
pakistan used the BVR term in the begining to confuse the indians about missile specifics when the H4 came out first…
the first news article just said something about the successful test of a BVR missile called H4…
the article you’re linking to is the second one which came out later and gives a bit more detail on missile specifics…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 10:22 AM
The Darter clones are air to ground only. And I know the article is an old one. BVR is taken to mean air-to-air, but the fact is the H4 can hit a ground target beyong visual range.
A cruise missile would be overkill, LOL.
I was theorizing that a clone could be used for targeting and calling in an aircraft fitted with an H4 (or whatever upgrade they have these days). It wouldn’t have been seen. The choppers came a few minutes later for clean-up. I understand that is the standard practice.
And you manage that website and the forum? I’m there all the time. Are you a mod at the forum?
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 12:09 PM
“clone”? Sorry… mind was elsewhere… I meant “drone”. LOL
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 12:10 PM
let me guess; LDP?
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 01:09 PM
Nope.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 02:10 PM
Rampart
Nothing personal but here is what I think about reading the Koran.
Koran says, say your prayer but it won’t say how; you will find that in Hadith. Likewise what you will do while traveling in an airplane when its time for prayer or what you will do in Antarctica where you have six months of a day and six months of a night. How would you address the debate of interest in the economy?
If I take your argument then just by reading the books can I become a doctor or engineer without going to any college or university. The point I am trying to make is that you need college degree for even a low level of job, then how come we take religion so lightly.
There are two types of issues, simple and complex. Simple issues can be understood by anyone just by reading but complex issues require more in depth knowledge and understanding. So, I would agree on the first one but on the second I would differ with you.
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 02:19 PM
Enjoy the China boom while you can its an artificial equation and will explode.
And as far TNSM or whatever is concerned there are otherways to tackle them not necesary to explode them.
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 02:22 PM
Peace:
It is the 80-20 rule. That is, that 80% of the time, you only need 20% of your maximum knowledge.
This is the same rule in Karate. I have been doing this shit for a long time. I know more than 2 dozen ways to take you apart in 2 seconds.
How many ways do I ever use? Only 2. LOL
Same with religion. I am not in Antarctica. Until I am, I have enough knowledge about Islam to take care of the day to day stuff, no need for some damn “scholar” with lice in his beard to show me his face.
What bothers me is this…. there are 45,000 hadiths. Out those only 5000 are said to be genuine (I am not the one saying this… this is what Islamic scholars say). Out of these 5000, some are deemed genuine by one sect and not by others.
One well known hadith however is “if you notice a discrepancy between my saying something and what is in the Koran, act like I never said it” (Prophet Mohamed PBUH).
You misunderstood my point.
Islam’s strength is a lack of hierarchy or a priesthood. We are not an organized religion in the common sense. That is what has resulted in over 80 sects and is a blessing.
The mulla secretly wishes us to have a priesthood. And such people are the enemy of true freedom.
We are Hanfi-muslims. No “church” or priesthood for us, thanks.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 02:42 PM
Peace:
How is the China boom going to explode? I fail to see. You only have to go to the bazaar to be horrified. The thing I got the other day was a fraction of the price of an IPod, yet it does the same stuff.
————————————
I agree there are other ways of dealing with Taliban or fake-taliban or neo-taliban types.
Now that they have seen an example of what we can do to them, signing a peace deal will be much easier.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 02:48 PM
You miss the point. I am not advocating for mullahs here and I agree there is no such thing as church or priesthood in Islam.
I as person have enough knowledge to carry out my daily life. My point in talking about Antarctica was just to clarify something and that is when you are talking about the society you are not talking for an individual and the rule for society are a bit different then individual.
But one thing is key in religion and that is if your are earnings are from a doubtful or illegal source then whatever you buy is illegal which means none of your prayers has any meaning whatsoever.
I am not interested in proving my points or whatever you think you are
How the US is different from Pakistan. United States fought for its freedom, threw the colonial masters in the ocean and changed everything that reminded them of the colonial past including the language which some call Hodge podge.
Pakistan on the other hand was given freedom in the begging bowl. Our leader’s taste like them, smell likes them and even in our constitution we have their poo in it and yet we call ourselves free. We feel proud to speak their language and think our language is inferior, may be we are not someone with slave mentality rather we are totally slaves and yet we think we are free.
You are talking from an individual angle and I am talking for the society as whole. I guess we are in the gray area and will keep confusing each other so I will leave it at that.
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 03:13 PM
the underpriviliged will always opt for the socialist model… the priviliged will always go for the capitalist system…
both model if followed blindly cause problems… personally, I’ve always been a fan of canada… there is a lot we can learn from their way of governance…
TSNM was a dead organization before the bombing; the guy leading the organization led thousands of people to afghanistan after 911 and then came skulking back after a couple of months… the locals blamed them for leading them into a zero sum game… had the guy become a ‘martyr’ it would have been different… coming back alive wasnt a good idea for him or his cause…
the bombing however, gave them legitemacy like nothing else could have… any person signing a peace with the government now will be viewed as a traitor… even the local members of parliament have resigned… if you think that you kill their children and they’ll become scared and make peace is simply idiotic…
do not confuse TSNM with the locals… the fata people have always managed their own affairs…
the dargai incident showed that the restrain the tribals were exercising is gone now… it isnt exactly very difficult to load up with explosives and go blow yourself up among people… we are simply not ready to handle such a situation…
there will be escalating tit for tat responses, with the attacks moving into the cities… lets hope the dargai incident was the last of it… there are millions of afghan refugees in the country right now…
hamid karzai’s ‘complaints’ have nothing todo with our people crossing into afghanistan and fighting… notice that karzai virulently opposes the building of a fence across the border to stop “incursions” from our side… wonder why…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 03:15 PM
Pakistan should simply stop fighting the locals and fence the border up… while we’re at it, we should also let afghanistan try the iranian routes for their exports and imports… oh and move the afghans back to their home country… that includes the families of all those northern alliance people who’re living in our cities… let them live and prosper in their home land…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 03:23 PM
let them grow their own wheat… it’ll give them a chance to grow something more edible than poppy…
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 12, 2006 03:27 PM
Peace:
I think we actually agree with 90% of what each other is saying. The rest is… as you said.. a gray area, possibly being caused by miscommunication.
“Freedom”, I meant in a religious sense only. I also agree Pakistan is probably never going to be culturally free since we don’t have a genuine culture of our own. LOL
We are the sons and daughters of thousands of years of bastards who raped the true people of the land and settled here. This shows in the Urdu language, which is a mix of the language of every rapist who invaded India.
It is not actually a bad thing. And if we can accept every rapist in our culture since Chengiz Khan … we can accept the English language too.
Reality:
Oh, I agree 100% with you on that. We should fence the whole border and mine it as well. But then that stupid Karzai starts crying.
We should do it anyway. The hell with them. Throw them all out of here.
That they haven’t done this….this is lack of a political spine, I admit.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 03:42 PM
Fencing borders… this is usually the only viable short term solution to border security issues, but it will almost always fail because it doesn’t address the underlying problem; diligent crossers will tunnel under it, or bribe the guards.
I don’t know what motivates border crossing on the Pakistani border nowadays; I imagine it has something to do with people who have less wanting access to people who have more, and a means of safely conducting insurgent operations against American occupiers while staying out of our sights (not that it’s hard to stay out of sight when there are only 30,000 Americans there in the first place).
That said, there is enough drug money and product flowing out of Afghanistan to frustrate any concerted effort to fence off and close the border. Drugs and money talk. Our own southern border, which demarcates the most economically prosperous nation on earth from one of the poorer nations in North America, could never be effectively sealed by a fence, national guard deployments, or border security. When you have an area of scarcity adjoining an area of wealth, diffusion will occur across any semipermeable divider; you can reduce the permeability, but given that any border control is ultimately a human undertaking, you’ll never completely or even effectively stem the flow.
Then again, you might be able to establish a DMZ and mine it :)
Posted by chatman at November 12, 2006 03:48 PM
I think a better solution for Afghanistan is to bring back the king. That will be far better solution than putting this stooge on the stage.
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 04:12 PM
King is falling apart. He ain’t coming/going nowhere.
Posted by Rampart at November 12, 2006 04:23 PM
I guess than, just pray for the masters to leave, till then we will have to live with this fun fare for a while.
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 04:45 PM
Rampart, apply for the job man, you are a Pathan.
Posted by oldfan at November 12, 2006 04:47 PM
LOL, ya why not!
Posted by Peace at November 12, 2006 04:57 PM
There are much better places I can be King of than that place…. can’t speak the language anyway. Would make a ridiculous King.
I would love to be King of Amreeka however. Amreeka deserves a King up it’s butt.
Posted by Rampart at November 13, 2006 12:11 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/10/AR2006111001785.html
Posted by _RealityBites_ at November 14, 2006 06:56 AM